New Prius v Sales Already Clobbered Volt

I believe the comparison is the launch. One with a plug gets $7,500 tax credit and the other without. Both are hybrids with different size. People vote with wallet and the results were compared.

 

So you and your pals think the ford f series is much better than the whole prii family put together. It must be because it doesn't have that awful battery, we know its better because sales are much higher

Or you can actually think:focus:
Its a stupid comparison, meant to say a innovative technology should not be tried because its sales are not as high as an established one. The prius liftback (and each individually the prius c, prius v, prius xyz aqua, camry, etc) is going to greatly outsell the prius phv this year as well. Does that mean that it will be a total failure. Not if you actually want to give the new technology a chance. The corolla ww still kills the prius in sales, that does not mean it was wrong for toyota to try to sell some new gas saving technology, why have such a poor yard stick for the volt.

 

The comparison is between two "green" fuel efficient vehicles. Their purpose is to reduce emission and fuel consumption. Prius has reduced 1.1 billion gallons of gas consumption and reduced 16 million tons of CO2 emission.

How much gas and CO2 emission has the Ford F series saved? How about the Volt?

We are not comparing the sales of plugin bicycle in China to the Volt nor the Prius to the F series.

To me, the comparison was done to state the obvious. The hybrids are mainstream but the plugins are not. It did not say "innovative technology should not be tried because its sales are not as high as an established one". You did.

 

I'm not sure but isn't the OP a Leaf owner? If so, will he post a similar thread when v sales over take it (probably all ready have)?

 

To compare the sales of EV to hybrid? Will be good to know.

 

"Its a stupid comparison, meant to say a innovative technology should not be tried because its sales are not as high as an established one."

No, it was to say that it is bad public policy to provide massive public subsidy for anemic innovation. The Volt will NEVER even approach the Prius in societal benefit, and it is not basic R&D that will amortize into the future. *That* was HSD, and America received it free of charge.

 

While we on this topic, how much of Volt's innovations are from PNGV? How much more is needed to make it mainstream?

I could see Prius PHV becoming mainstream in the next gen with multiple EV range. The Liftback size with lower EV range and Prius V PHV with more EV range.

 

First the generic statement about Prius "saving" is compared to the average car.. not what the prius is improving from, not a comparable car. Ford's Ecoboot engines, used in the F series, have
20% better fuel efficiency and 15% reduced greenhouse emissions than these comparable engines.. so Ford could equally argue "F-series" has saved a billion gallons too. (Both are just marketing speak).


The point is that sales may be a meaningful measure for mature products demand. Its not a measure of quality, or potential for a new product.

Moreover, the Prius V is NOT a new product. Its the "wagon" version of an existing product. Like other manufacture that sometime sell wagon+sedan or hatchback+sedan, its not a new product, its a body variant. Toyota, having "new" to offer lately just decided to push it as a "new" car. In reality, it is so similar to the existing product that it needs no real marketing, no company/service training, etc. It could have just been the 2012 new model Prius, and no one would have said it was anything different. No one looks at it as says.. I wonder about its reliability or tech.. because nothing is new. Just a slightly bigger body.

The Volt is a radically new product, requiring customer education and company changes (the people selling them need to learn what they are and how to sell it). So adoption will be slower.


The Volt, in its first year, most of which was not nationwide, still made it into 11th overall for hybrid/EV sales. It sold more than the first year of the Prius.

No one can meaningful say if the Volt will be successful or not. Only time will tell. But its easy to show why the Prius V sales are not a meaningful point of comparison with the Volt. The comparison of the Prius V sales to the Volt is no more meaningful than the F-series to the Prius family.

 

The logic of sales a a metric has nothing to do with measures of innovation nor as a model of innovation investment. If sales are good then there is no need for public investment in innovation.

Investing in EVs via tax credits on the sale is the government getting companies to move from science projects (where they companies did not
have to really make viable products), to innovation with impact.


So I guess ou feel there should be no subsidies for the Prius PHV which is anemic innovation. And should not have had subsidies for the regular Hybrids.

The PHV's average MPG means that a 12000 mile per year driver will use 200 gallons of gas (ignoring Electricity for a second). A regular Prius owner would use 240. The PHV technology is not doing much to reduce dependency and toyota took little risk to produce that product. In comparison, the average volt driver will use about half that. The leaf driver will likely use 1/2 to 1/4 of the PHV (using other vehicles for long trips), and and Nissan took a huge risk to produce it.
That the leaf and Volt get the same subsidy is probably wrong.. but the PHV should get a much much smaller one, if any.

One can argue about carbon and other dimensions from the grid charging, but in terms of investing in technology and change, that is not the strong point. The grid is getting cleaner but we need, as a society, to get off a gas. The Prius did little to actually change that. Its not clear that its advances saved anything. It fall within the scope of
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox"]Jevons paradox[/ame].. its just a small efficiency gain. And often efficiency gains lead to more usage, not less I know prius drivers that think nothing of driving 100m to go to a restaurant for dinner -- because its only a few bucks.

Changing energy sources will have a much greater societal benefit than small increases in efficiency. That is why the government is investing in it -- its investing in long term gain, not short term folly.

 

I don't think we are changing energy sources. We'll be blending more sources in, shifting gradually. In my opinion, old turkey approach with high cost/power electric propulsion won't work.

 

Well you were saying sales were all that mattered, and if you can not see the error of that reasoning, I'm sure most others can. Let's go there though, edo=boost is the new F series variant which accounted for a high percentage of the sales and moved people from other trucdks. This saves about 20% gasoline compared to those other trucks. I am unsure if the prius v moved many more people to prius, but it uses 20% more gas than the prius liftback. So as far as apples to apples the prius v is a clear loser when you properly apply that reasoning. Will a prius v use less gas than an f-series, sure, but it does use significantly more than a prius. In january prius + prius v had a lower market share than the prius alone last year. Definitely some canibalization taking place here.

I'm not sure why one is better than the other. They are very different vehicles. As other have said, when toyota starts shipping the prius phv that is an area to be compared. Those electric bikes do produce a lot of ghg compared to the pedal bikes I ride The F-series eco-boost is probably a much better comparison point to the prius v, than the volt.

Well it was done in a pretty slip shod and disingenous way. It is pretty obvious making a wagon version of a popular car is going to sell more than a much more expensive new innovative car. You seemed to buy into the this and hill. Why? Are you so scared of the volt that you reject honest measures.

 

The only source for the Prius V is gas. Nothing is blended.
I'd agree not everyone will go cold turkey, and cold-turkey may be less efficient. The Leaf or other BEV would work for my commute but not for trips. I did not go cold turkey yet, which is part of why I own a Volt, so I can use it for long trips.

We need a range of solutions to move us off gas. But some of them are risker for the companies doing it and incentives help make up for that risk. The prius V was not risky. The Prius PHV was not very risky.

 

In the recent Prius c introduction Bob Carter took the opportunity to proudly reveal the domination of Toyota within the Hybrid/Alternative market.

And IMO, that's basically it. When it comes to a mass produced and readily available automotive product that doesn't just run only on gas? Toyota is currently KING.

The fact that a larger, hybrid wagon that is relatively affordable and readily available is more popular than a much higher priced, and not as available, Chevy Volt IMO should not surprise anyone. I'm thinking not even Chevy was thinking Volt would knock Prius from it's throne. At least not today.

If you are a average consumer, interested in driving something off the lot that doesn't only burn fossil fuels, you are probably primarily at a Toyota Dealerhship.

Nissan, Chevy, Ford...they have their "alternative" niche bullet...But Toyota? Has the whole gatling gun.

 

I did? When did I say that?

Sales have the multiplication factor. The number of Ecoboost sales amplified the gas and CO2 saving.

A niche vehicle like the Volt doesn't have much multiplication factor and the comparison with Prius v (subset of Prius family) highlighted that.

 

Any chance you are just counting geography that suits you ?

Volt rides on the shoulders of 14 years of Prius success, DESPITE non-stop FUD in the US to hinder its market acceptance. F off, GM. Comparing the two cars domestic uptake rate is a joke.

 

There ain't no Toyota's on the lot that don't primarily burn fossil fuel. The prius c will hopefully increase the percentage of fuel efficient vehicles, but this does not use power from the outlet. It is a gasoline only car. I have no idea when the phv will be available for sale on lots, certainly not for a long time in my state. Unless you find a driver that recharges multiple times a day or drives less than 8K miles a year it will use more gas than electricity. These are steps in the right direction for fuel efficiency though.

 

Sorry, but Totoyta is the king of the hybrid vehicle not of cars "doesn't just run only on gas" The are all (currently) driven solely off of gas. It may use a battery to help it be efficient, buts all of its energy is from gas.

Toyota has great guns for hybrids, and an late-comer for a plugin. In a few weeks we'll see the first of the production Prius PHVs hit the US shores. And the PHV will be in limited supply for this year. If you want to drive something off the lot that does doesn't only burn fossil fuel you'll probably be at Nissan or Chevy dealer.

 

Yes, but READ my statement. I didn't say "ain't no Toyota;s on the lot that don't PRIMARILY burn fossil fuel."

I said if you want a vehicles that doesn't burn ONLY fossil fuel.

Toyota dominates the mainstream "Alternative" market. Plain and Simple.

 

Seems to me they voted with there wallets - if you didn't mean sales are the only bench mark what did you mean.

Certainly the volt or prius phv in the first generation can not reduce that much gas usage because, but maybe gm and toyota can learn enough for a well selling gen II. That was the way with the original prius. This might not even be a volt or prius phv - it maybe the toyota ns4. Any way you cut it no one but a fan boi expected gm to sell large numbers of volts until 2013. Nissan with their leaf is the only company claiming to go after large market share fast, and they are floundering a little with gm with all the negative press about batteries and subsidies. A tax credit only makes it to these cars if someone buys them.

The eco-boost saves a lot of gas because of the huge volumes, but these trucks still burn a great deal -18 mpg combined, and these will be on the roads for many years. People are hypermiling them though.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=35173
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/05/cleanmpg-coaxes-32-mpg-from-ford-f-150-ecoboost-pickup.html
The best hope is the combined Toyota and Ford R&D going on now to build a hybrid system for trucks that should blow away current fuel economy.

 

What toyota on the lot uses any fuel other than fossil fuel?

Toyota dominates the hybrid market. Since hybrids are still alternative, you can spin it that way too. But is in terms of cars that plug in and use something other than fossil fuel, they are late to the game. I was disappointed and expected a PHEV from them in the '05-06 time frame and would have both a Prius PHV back then.