New Poll: Americans Shun Electrics

so what exactly are you questioning? the logic that EV need to target people who drive most of the miles (taxi)?

There is a difference btw required and had done it on occasion when need arisen.

Point is that EV is local commuter/grocery getter, glorified golf card not a car.

It lacks flexibility.

Not b/c of the decimal range, because of the recharge time

 

Yes. Perhaps I didn't word it well.
Instead of going after the individual driver that drives the most, go after the market that has the most miles driven.

The people that drive distances under 75 miles a day is, as I recall, about 67%-75%. People that drive 200 miles a day is probably 10% or less of the private vehicle market.
Since the technology exists today to meet the needs of a chunk of the larger market, and the larger market puts more miles on the road than your extreme case, why shouldn't EVs start there?

I again respectfully disagree.
My Prius can't drive on water. Does it lack 'flexibility'? Why yes it does, but it isn't flexibility that I typically need, so it doesn't matter. It also can't haul 2 tons of brick. But again, I would use a different tool for that job if I needed to haul 2 tons of brick.
Now, if you happen to be married and have a two car family that does make the household more flexible. But that is the case with any cars, EV or not.

There are a number of people for who an EV won't fit their needs. And there are a number of people for which an EV will meet their needs.
If it won't fit yours, don't get one, I wouldn't want you to get a car that won't work for you.
But don't belittle the type of car just because you are in the unlucky position of not having the option of getting one yet

 

I thought you would go after most miles, not after drivers. It is the miles driven which pollute, not the drivers. And then in 3/4 of the country EV will produce more CO2 per mile then hybrid (Leaf vs Prius).

this is taken from p.2 of this post.. you might have missed it.

It is not that I do not believe EV, what I am saying it is not a replacement for a gasoline driven car, because it cannot do what any gasoline cars can. Not just some, 100% of them. No doubt there is market for it, as much as there is a market for scooters, motorcycles and bicycles. But how many bicycle owners view their steeds as car replacement?

 

I think we are talking past each other. I am going after the most miles.
These numbers are hypothetical, to try to illustrate my point:
Added together, all of the 1000 long distance drivers (250+miles per trip) drive 10 Million miles per day.
Added together, all the 1,000,000 short distance drivers (<37.5 miles per trip) drive 37 million miles per day.
37 million is greater than 10 million. The short commuter market in terms of total miles driven is larger than the long distance drivers.
And even if that were not the case, since the technology is there for the short commuter market, why not roll them out for them?

I did, my appologies.

Again, EVs don't work for everyone. But they do work for many more than you seem to think. And than number is growing as the battery technology improves.

For me, the EV IS a replacement for a gasoline driven car. For you, perhaps not. When the Tesla model S comes out next year we expect to be a two EV family, because the range fits all our needs.

While I understand an EV doesn't work for you, I don't understand why you belittle EVs by calling them 'golf carts'.

 

We actually agreeing more then disagreeing.. and your enthusiasm for EV is appreciated. And EV works as 2nd car, no doubt. Can't see 2-EV family, unless you have a 3rd gas car, do not travel at all or plan to rent.

With respect to EV, what is your daily commute? have you considered alternatives like using much cleaner means of transportation then EV?

 

I drive my Volt about 50 miles a day, most days, and don't burn any gas on those days (I charge at work). My local power grid is 43% nuclear, and I'm having a hefty solar (PV) system installed to meet all my household and charging needs. I can't think of any cleaner means of transportation than sunshine. I hope my next car to be a full EV (w/ at least 150 miles of range minimum).

Part of the benefit of EV's is it is a lot easier for us to clean up our energy production than it is to clean up our oil consumption.

 

Oh, that reminds me - why haven't the mods relegated this thread into the EV forum? People (disjointedly) talking PHEV's and all ... when the PHEV PRIUS and VOLT are not even EV's ... they don't have to deal with those horrible golf cart problems ... those horrible coal exhaust issues ... those rich folks toys etc. It's confusing enough trying to read folks' hideous sentence structure & grammar ... throw all the rest into the mix and we get all this.
Hello ... mods ... hello ...

 

Actually there will be.. bicycle for example. Or you can get this, if you wanna electric: ZERO S ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE

Perhaps 2011 Yamaha Zuma 125 Home, information will have smaller footprint then your Volt or EV, but we need to run numbers (output of your solar array and consumption, also % of fossil component in electricity)

 

Not sure I follow, are you saying you don't want people to discuss plug-in vehicles in the plug-in prius forum?

 

How are you measuring the cleanliness of the transportation energy for the bicycle? I'm not vegetarian or anything so you need to factor in the deforestation in the Amazon to make the grazing room for cattle, and the emissions transporting all that beef here, and refrigeration energy needs, etc...and thats not to mention the propane used to grill them, and thats just the patty.

Also you need to look downstream too so we can compare emissions, you're going to have to factor in waste water management and treatment and methane emissions. And you know I'll get sweaty pedaling so then you need to think about the requisite shower afterwards and the additional fresh water resources you're using up, plus the natural gas to heat the water...

Compared to a 100% PV powered electric cars, bicycles are disgusting resource hogs.

 

I agree, we do agree on the base points. Where I disagree with you is your comments such as 'EVs being golf carts' or that an EV doesn't work as a primary vehicle.
It is our primary vehicle, has been for about a year.
The daily trips vary, but are typically 50 miles, and once or twice a week 75 mile round trip.
Locally there is poor mass transit (which my EV is cleaner than anyways). Bike trails in the neighborhood are great, but the trip from our suburb to the city is awful.
We added solar panels specifically to produce as much as the EV (and eventually 2) require. So the EVs are about as clean as an individual motorized vehicle can get.

Once or twice a year we take a trip to relatives out of state. Seems silly to allow such a rare event to dictate our vehicle decision. We will rent (most likely a Prius) when needed. If we travel further than that, we will go by trane or plane. But that is a truly rare occurrence.

So again, I still hold that the current target market is the correct one for auto makers as the technology is available today and the total miles driven by that market is greater than the total miles driven by the smaller market of long range drivers.

 

thnx for the laughter..
here is info you are looking for:


- power yourself with Ecostrip powerbars
- don't take shower before you get on bike, just take it when you arrive to work

 

Actually, all those kcal are not the same. About 10 kcal of fossil fuels go into 1 kcal of food (aggregate American diet).

I did an analysis of the fossil fuels that go into bike riding, the answer was basically that given the American diet, bikes get somewhere between 65 MPG and 250 MPG. I can probably find ir if anyone is really interested.

 

Consider that the Taxi takes warm trips all day long, and the granny car is a cold start every time. Unless you ONLY count CO2 as "pollution" there is much more to consider here.

Yeah... as has been said - this is just like in the EV1 days. GM claimed they couldn't sell more than 1800 cars. Terrible! They failed to mention that they only MADE 1800 cars... and didn't "sell" a single one.

Perfect point!

Please don't go there. You're wrong. I speak from over 10 years of experience - owning both a "real" car (meaning it burns gasoline) and an EV at the same time. In that time, the EV has been used on at least 10x as many trips as the gas car.

Because of the three seconds it take me to plug it in? WAY less time than I spend standing there pouring gasoline into the Prius.

You're talking about range and recharge time right? Nothing else. You do realize how many things an EV can do that a gasoline car can't do, right? Doesn't that mean that a gasoline car couldn't hope to replace an EV?

GREAT question! The answer is... I do. And because I ride way more than I drive any car, I'm sure I'll be pegged as "way out of the ordinary." Yeah well. I agree. Sadly, I agree. My bike isn't a car replacement. It is simply my transportation. The car is my hauler for those few times when I want (most would use the word "need" here of course) to go farther/faster/carry more. And that means about once or twice a month max. Crazy is how many times we use 3-4,000 pounds of vehicle to transport nothing more than our little bags of protoplasm around town.

Does that take into the account the amount of fossil fuel that goes into making... fossil fuel?

 

here is some info:
HowStuffWorks "Is there a way to compare a human being to an engine in terms of efficiency?"

Food:
Energy Required To Produce a Pound of Food : TreeHugger




EAT MORE CHIKIN'

 

Meanwhile - back at the ranch
(joking here ... as I swing back onto OP's topic)
May total sales volume are in. Volt (NOT electric) versus Leaf ... so let's look at the numbers - since the close of MAY:
Leaf total sales: 6,606
Volt total sales: 2,510

Now, when you consider GM's dealerships are selling Volts back and forth between each other (still counts as a "sale" anyway) the numbers look even more paltry. Hmmm imagine that ... the leaf outselling the volt (roughly) 3 to 1. So much for the OP's author's "Americans Shun Electics" theory.



Ok, so they're selling Volts in a smaller market ... and Leafs in a world wide market. When you factor in that Volts are being sold back and forth between dealerships, that pretty much cancels out the world wide market that volt skews. Point is, the shun factor simply aint there.

 

Can you get a breakdown of total Leaf sales in US only? This would be more realistic in judging American tastes for EV, even with the skewed figures for the Volt in US.

 

There have been about 2100 volts and 2100 leafs sold or leased and delivered in the US in 2011. There have been 17 more volts. This does not show american tastes, as it is supply constrained by both Nissan and GM. We can expect Nissan to ramp up its shipments faster than GM, but we won't know the actual demand until sometime in 2012 or 2013 as demand outstrips supply of both cars.

 

Nope. The point (at the time) was to make a direct comparison between bikes and cars. Car MPG does not consider the fossil fuel that goes into making fossil fuels either.