My Prius needs a battery, Toyota denies warranty due to EV button

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bear68 @ Aug 5 2007, 06:54 AM) [snapback]490839[/snapback]</div>

This is the first I've heard this claim (or opinion as you say). Besides it being your opinion, is there ANY other indication that this is so? I can't imagine any logic for it, though that means very little!

 

I have a hard time with that explanation. If this were true, why then is the programming still there? If the "designed for the country it was sold in" thing was true it would seem that the programming would be erased for the countries that don't have the button.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Aug 5 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]490979[/snapback]</div>

I still believe the entire EV button issue is entirely political and not a technical risk. AFAIK, there is not a single Toyota dealer in North America who will endorse installing an EV switch since Toyota Corporate made the decision it is not available in this market (for whatever their reason).

From the viewpoint of a manufacturer, why should they support "black market" modifications of their product and still honour their warranty? I don't know of any manufacturer who would support non-certified end-users making modifications to their product and then be expected to still warranty it...

It really is unfortunate for us since this worldwide feature is not available here, but at the end of the day it boils down to a calculated warranty risk should you decide to override Toyota's decision not to include this nifty feature.

 

Folks, the simple fact of the matter is that the EV button is not installed in the Prius models which are shipped to the US. Toyota Motor Corporation makes the Prius, but Toyota Motor North America is the warrantor for the Toyota cars sold in the US.

 

Bear68

Thanks for the excellent reply. The first hand view you (and at least one notable other) report can only continue to educate me and probably a few others as well.

 

Just as food for thought.... There are other Toyota models which are sold in other countries which are unavailable here. The HiLux, the Avanza and the Hiace, just to name the ones I know of off the top of my head. There are even diesel Toyotas sold in other countries. Why are they not sold here? I don't know.

I guess I will just stick to doing what I do best. Fixing cars.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Aug 10 2007, 03:04 PM) [snapback]493721[/snapback]</div>

thanks for the update Nate. It's good to know that you can repeat the BSOC issue in another Prius. Now as long as coming down the hills you get it back up in the green, you can really smile.

 

If you do the PHEV where you're replacing the battery pack not just supplementing it, then you have the factory battery pack to swap back in if the PI pack fails and doesn't get some type of warranty replacement. I plan to give my "soon to be" prius a few months to make sure all is well then install the switch. Does anyone know if the ECU logs the usage of the EV button or can it get uninstalled if the stuff hits the fan?



Glad to hear that you got taken care of finally.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 19 2007, 11:24 PM) [snapback]481997[/snapback]</div>

 

I'm happy you had a good outcome, but I'll bet it was a tense moment when you first got the shock. Thanks for sharing your experience. As for the EV, I never thought the button was worth the effort for what I understand is pretty miniscule performance on electric mode only. It seemed more like a hip, enviro-gimmik than a real advantage. Sooner, rather than later, the battery pack in the Prius will be capable of a reasonable range in electric mode.

 

Has anyone looked at the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act or other laws in place for warranty protection with "unauthorized" modifications?

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.shtm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

It may not be exactly the same, but figure they could make the same claim for any after market part. There is still a burden of proof that your modification lead to the failure.

Here is K&N's interpretation: http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm

It is ridiculous that Toyota made a stink out of it. The button doesn't modify anything, it just tells the computer to activate a software mode that already exists.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Aug 5 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]490979[/snapback]</div>

do not know why. It's logical, it's true, and it's common knowledge in the automotive world. ECUs are always programmed to given emissions standards. California-spec ECUs have different programming than Federal ECUs. At times, even the hardware is different.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Aug 5 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]490979[/snapback]</div>

Because it's easier to disable it than take it out. Why should Toyota build a different HV ECU with missing pins when they can just eliminate a bit of wiring? Remember, this is a mass-produced vehicle designed to produce some sort of a profit, not a hand-built one-off.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Aug 5 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]490979[/snapback]</div>

There's no need to do that if it's been disabled otherwise.

Oh, wait - look, there's a blank plate where the EV button should go. Hey, why doesn't Toyota stop using their current dash molds, and design a completely different mold for the US Prius; one that doesn't need a blanking plate?

Get it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Aug 5 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]490979[/snapback]</div>

do not know why. It's logical, it's true, and it's common knowledge in the automotive world. ECUs are always programmed to given emissions standards. California-spec ECUs have different programming than Federal ECUs. At times, even the hardware is different.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Aug 5 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]490979[/snapback]</div>

Because it's easier to disable it than take it out. Why should Toyota build a different HV ECU with missing pins when they can just eliminate a bit of wiring? Remember, this is a mass-produced vehicle designed to produce some sort of a profit, not a hand-built one-off.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Aug 5 2007, 05:51 PM) [snapback]490979[/snapback]</div>

There's no need to do that if it's been disabled otherwise.

Oh, wait - look, there's a blank plate where the EV button should go. Hey, why doesn't Toyota stop using their current dash molds, and design a completely different mold for the US Prius; one that doesn't need a blanking plate?

Get it?

 

Over here in the UK where the EV button is fitted, it drops out of EV mode at about 30mph
which is annoying as the main limits are 30mph

In the US where the EV button is not fitted as standard, the drop out appears to be - is it 34mph

Maybe that's why there may be warranty anomolies
The battery may not be ok with the extra EV use

 

Over here in the UK where the EV button is fitted, it drops out of EV mode at about 30mph
which is annoying as the main limits are 30mph

In the US where the EV button is not fitted as standard, the drop out appears to be - is it 34mph

Maybe that's why there may be warranty anomolies
The battery may not be ok with the extra EV use

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jk450 @ Sep 12 2007, 12:50 AM) [snapback]511146[/snapback]</div>

Any sourced info that any Prius ECU is different (hard or soft) in any of its markets would be unique and undoubtedly welcomed. We love to learn!

The US emissions implications of the NHW20 EV button was actually covered quite well by Kristian Damkier 19 October 2004 in the Yahoo Prius-2G group. Message # 20928 for the curious.

Prius2go, while studying up for this matter I got the impression that the difference you mention may relate to a 'conservative' speedometer setup for EU regs. And no (as likely clear from context), this would not be the sort of ECU reprog I alluded to above.

Golly, sometimes it seems that we have been doing all this for a really long time. Prius 10th birthday 10th December (covered elsewhere).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jk450 @ Sep 12 2007, 12:50 AM) [snapback]511146[/snapback]</div>

Any sourced info that any Prius ECU is different (hard or soft) in any of its markets would be unique and undoubtedly welcomed. We love to learn!

The US emissions implications of the NHW20 EV button was actually covered quite well by Kristian Damkier 19 October 2004 in the Yahoo Prius-2G group. Message # 20928 for the curious.

Prius2go, while studying up for this matter I got the impression that the difference you mention may relate to a 'conservative' speedometer setup for EU regs. And no (as likely clear from context), this would not be the sort of ECU reprog I alluded to above.

Golly, sometimes it seems that we have been doing all this for a really long time. Prius 10th birthday 10th December (covered elsewhere).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jk450 @ Sep 12 2007, 01:50 AM) [snapback]511146[/snapback]</div>

All Prius sold in NA are Cal emission certified even the ones sold in Canada.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jk450 @ Sep 12 2007, 01:50 AM) [snapback]511146[/snapback]</div>

All Prius sold in NA are Cal emission certified even the ones sold in Canada.

 

In my mind it seems pretty clear why Toyota does not want to warrant a Prius with an EV switch in the US. Here is my reasoning.

1. One of the main worries of US customers is that the batteries will wear out, necessitating an expensive replacement.
2. The more that you charge-discharge (cycle) the battery the quicker it will wear out. Toyota has done a lot of things to increase battery life in the Prius. Mainly they restricted the battery charge range to 40-80 percent, and the computer actually tries to keep it in the middle.
3. Using the EV switch can cause you to increase the level of charge-discharge when driving the prius. That WILL make the battery wear out a bit sooner. It won't make it fail right away, but the batteries life WILL be reduced.
4. By trying to deny warranty coverage on cars with EV switches, fewer people will install the switches. Thus, overall, Prius batteries will last longer. ie. longer "mean time between failure" (MTBF).
5. The fewer Prius batteries that fail, the better reputation the Prius car has.

My 02.