My Prius needs a battery, Toyota denies warranty due to EV button

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FiftyOneMPG @ Jul 28 2007, 02:21 AM) [snapback]486614[/snapback]</div>

I thought it was more a factor of retaining the AT-PZEV rating. If the catalytic converter cools off, it's not as efficient. That's why there's a mandatory warmup period when you first turn on the car. The HiHy is probably only rated as SULEV, and countries outside of the US don't have the same emissions standards. Perhaps when the EPA devises tests specifically for hybrids they can average in the tiny increase in emissions from a cooled-off cat with the amount of time the car runs on battery alone....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 28 2007, 12:25 AM) [snapback]486607[/snapback]</div>

And yet by federal law, they can't make that call.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 28 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]486772[/snapback]</div>

yet Nate's only recourse was to initiate legal action. Or knuckle under. Maybe he should have asked the PriusChat community what to do and who would have put their money where their mouth is. Want to guess the percentage. Yup that's about what I thought. 4% maybe 5%. It's called the law of attrition and corps use it all the time. Maybe the Sierra Leagle fund would like to take up that challange. I'm sure even they could see the benifite to the enviroment. Afterall it's not like ripping out the bladder which some have suggested.

 

This certainly does sound like a case of corporate bullying. If the EV switch mod won't allow EV at anything over 34 mph or at a SoC below 3-4 bars, it is actually safer for the battery than not having it. By feathering the pedal I can actually run EV at 2-3 bars or have been on EV as high as 40 mph when the SoC was high enough. It seems that Toyota forgot about the Magnuson-Moss(sp?)Act that says that a manufacturer must prove that a modification caused the reported problem. I'd also bet that there would be some lawyer somewhere that would take the case for free since it would be an easy win and a great way to increase his reputation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 19 2007, 08:26 PM) [snapback]482026[/snapback]</div>

Well, darn--I was all ready to install the momentary ev switch (using an easily removable method), but now I'm not so sure. If I ever go in for service, would just pulling out the switch keep a dealer from getting upset, or are there DTCs that might show up from using ev mode? If so, can these codes be cleared with a regular OBD2 tool, or would it have to be the Toyota scantool?

Thanks,

Tom

 

No such codes exist, even in the "operational history" parameters,
that I can detect either in the service manual or in fairly extensive
exploring with a Mastertech. It's bullying, plain and simple.
.
_H*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Jul 29 2007, 07:12 AM) [snapback]487025[/snapback]</div>

I've seen my car run for 20 seconds on EV at 60 MPH using CC down hill on the interstate. This is normal operation based on whatever the programming uses for inputs (battery SOC, demand for energy, ICE temp, whatever else). The only requirement over 42 MPH is that the ICE must be TURNING, it doesn't have to be FIRING. As many others have stated, the programming decides when to allow EV and when not to allow it. Battery too hot? No EV. Too cold? No EV. SOC too low? No EV, 'big power' demand? No EV

I agree with those that say the only potential problem is 'voiding' the AT-PZEV rating. At BEST that would make the car 'illegal' if it had some special status BECAUSE it is AT_PZEV. Convincing people that they shouldn't install an EV switch because it might invalidate the warranty is a lot easier than figuring out whether any individual vehicle is no longer achieving AT_PZEV due to the use of an EV switch. Frankly, I find that a hard arguement to swallow anyway. If I skate in the morning, my route to work includes a 1 mile nearly dead flat 25 MPH stretch. If I'm gentle on the pedal the entire 1 mile is EV and THE CAR IS DOING IT, NOT ME! This does NOT work in the winter when you need heat.

I say both 'reasons' are bogus and the problem is related to either the battery being less than stellar to start with or some damage done to the battery after the sudden ICE failure.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(diamondlarry @ Jul 29 2007, 07:12 AM) [snapback]487025[/snapback]</div>

Oh, really? Suing Toyota over the end user unauthorized modification of the highly complex hybrid system which could arguably be construed (that is, installing the EV switch) as putting some extra stress on the battery (hence statistically increased warranty claims however slight) and may also increase ICE pollutants over EPA standards for the Prius?

Find a lawyer who is willing to invest easily 6 and maybe 7 figures on a case like this to sue a foreign corporation with virtually unlimited legal resources.

Rick
#4 2006

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(viking31 @ Aug 2 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]489457[/snapback]</div>

You are absolutely correct. You might find a lawyer to take the case, but you can bet that it won't be on a contingency fee basis. In other words, you will be able to fight only as long as you are able to keep paying the legal bills.

Besides, the law is not in your favor here to begin with. The Magnusson-Moss Act says that a manufacturer may not deny warranty coverage solely because a customer has used an aftermarket part. But, if Toyota determines that the EV button is in some way responsible for the battery problem, it absolutely CAN void the warranty. Sure, you can always argue with the dealer and with Toyota, but you'll probably have to take it to court to get satisfaction.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ Aug 1 2007, 08:05 PM) [snapback]489060[/snapback]</div>

That's good to know, especially coming from someone who knows more about this car than all but a few engineers in Japan!

Thanks,
Tom

 

The episode just does not make sense. It is senseless to generate a policy, then retract, then leave everyone in the dark. The ill will ripple effect seen on PC is solid evidence. It's bad business and Toyota is not that prone to bad business (but not immune either). Usually where most look for conspiracy, I look for incompetence.

THEN IT HIT ME.

The word has probably been issued to not provide any warranty repairs to a Plug-In modified Prius. But how does one instruct the service departments what to look for? Well; a) lot of batteries in the back, b ) EV mod, and c) CanView or similar. I bet that someone jumped the gun and stopped the warranty work based on the EV mod alone. It was only with constant pressure from the OP that the premature reaction was identified and corrected. This probably took some days to figure out this was not a Plug In modification and then "recalibrate" the person who jumped the gun or gave the instructions for what to look for.

Certainly an opinion on my part, but this would make a lot more sense then declaring the warranty invalid because of a Toyota installed capability.

Now whether Plug In Modifications should invalidate the warranty, I will leave to another thread.

 

Well Folks... Here comes my two cents worth.... I have been told, from a Senior Official at SET (SouthEast Toyota) (I will not reveal the identity) "EV button modification voids warranty" The best explanation offered was due to the emmissions increase. This was a NONOFFICIAL communication brought about by my asking for an opinion of the EV modification.

As a sidenote.... One of the most annoying issues I encounter as a Toyoa Tech is when a customer says they have an issue which I then trace back to their aftermarket installed alarm, stereo equipment, trailer hitch etc. especially when it occurs on a vehicle still under warranty and I spend an hour or more working to find the problem. Toyota does NOT pay me for the time spent if the problem is not warrantable. Few customers will crack open their wallets when told that their Viper alarm from Circuit City is causing their door locks not to function properly. They usually get angry and storm off to Circuit City, or whereever, to vent their fury on the next unfortunate soul.

I don't have a good answer for this situation. I only know that I work very hard to earn my paycheck, kust like everybody else out there. If someone modifys their car and then wants me to fix it....

 

So, my question is, can I go buy the dash plastic piece to cover anew the hole I made with my ev switch? I rarely use mine but what's wrong with using it with a green battery in a parking lot, or re-parking, or moving to the next red light? None I tell you, NONE!

 

According to the video(Thunder) that describes the Coastal EV switch, if the pin is not shoved into the connector block far enough the switch won't work. If someone had the Coastal switch and wanted to disable it, would simply pulling out that pin be all that is needed to disable the EV switch? Would this be enough to keep the energy screen from popping up if the CC stalk was pulled? Would you have to disconnect the other couple of wires as well?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bear68 @ Aug 3 2007, 10:32 PM) [snapback]490302[/snapback]</div>

Thanks greatly for some real effort to find out details. Is the 'nonofficial' due to a (vallid) privacy desire or due to there being nothing written down anywhere about EV mods invalidating a warranty?

Also thanks for the inside view of many modifications. The good technicians often get way too little recognition at the expense of all the "front office faces" that most drivers see. When a very difficult repair is made, all I see is "Technician #16" on the form. I would rather thank someone with a name in person, not provide a "rating" over a phone. Some of the rare and intermittent problems that crop up can only be solved by the really good.....and yet the person I must deal with was not the solver.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rxmxsh @ Jul 20 2007, 03:18 AM) [snapback]482103[/snapback]</div>

I assume you mean the Coastaletech mod? Speaking of their stuff, I have and love one of their hitches on my 02 Prius, but the 07 Prius manual explicitly recommends against a hitch even to use for stuff like bike racks. I don't get that at all. SURELY it is better to have a nice solid thing like that bolted to a place that is supposed to hold the entire weight of the car pitching around on a ship than it is to strap a bike rack to the back with nylon straps or something on the roof with little hooks!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bear68 @ Aug 3 2007, 10:32 PM) [snapback]490302[/snapback]</div>

the set regional tech told DH he thought it fell in a gray area... since all you're really doing is accessing a program that already exists in the car.

i don't know if we're gonna find a unified official position on the issue... except nate's evidence :mellow:

ahhhh, someone else who understands how screwed over techs get in certain situations. car owners and even folks here don't always get how things work in the shop, and have more than once attempted to rip me a new one for what they don't know. part of our slow return to answering tech questions is that DH has a lot going on, and part is that he's reluctant to deal with that kind of crap for a while yet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 28 2007, 02:24 PM) [snapback]486794[/snapback]</div>

Yup, sucks. We human mortals made corporations, and now we have little control over them. It sucks, and would be very difficult to fight, I freely admit. Still doesn't make what they're doing any more legal. A nit, but I must pick.

 

My information on Toyota's stance on the EV mod is from a source who asked for anonymity. So far as I know, there is no official WRITTEN policy on the EV mod. However, if an HV battery fails, the tech is questioned as to whether there appears to have been any form of modifications. I have this ONLY from my own personal experiance. I have replaced 4 HV batteries under warranty, one Highlander, one first gen Prius and two newer model Prius. I also have an HV ordered for another first gen Prius. (2001-2003)

My personal opinion is that the vehicle was designed by Toyota to operate in one manner. Changing that design is of course something that is the new owner's choice. But, just as someone might lift and modify a four wheel drive truck, I do not feel it is proper to expect Toyota to guarantee the proper operation of a vehicle that is no longer conforming to it's original design. If a customer installs a high powered aftermarket stereo and blows out the factory speakers, is that Toyota's fault? Should they be held responsible for what can technically be called abuse?

For those that say that the EV mod is a Toyota product and is available in other countries, I say this. The ECUs programs are designed to operate as the vehilce is designed from the factory for the country in which it is sold. If you buy a Prius in Itlay and it has an EV button, then it was designed to operate with that button. If you buy a Prius in West Palm Beach and it does NOT have an EV button, then it was not designed to have one.

Please bear in mind that ALL of the above remarks are MY OWN OPINION ONLY! I am merely a Tech, certainly not an engineer or designer. Nor am I a Toyota representative. I am simply a man trying to earn a good living and be the best Tech I can be and do the best work I can do.

I will always do my best to help anyone with problems or advice on their Toyotas, simply because I like my job and I like the swelled head felling I get from helping solve problems!

P.S. For any who are wondering, those little blank covers that fit in the rectangular openings in your dash are easily available from Toyota for only a couple of dollars. Or, if you know a Tech, some of the packrats like me have probably saved some from other cars from installation of security indicators or other Toyota accessories.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ Jul 20 2007, 06:32 AM) [snapback]482137[/snapback]</div>

Just on note on your fuel economy. We didn't get good fuel mileage for the first 2-3K miles. Bring your tire psi up to 40-42 psi and that will help too. Now we can't get below 40 mpg winter and 46 summer. We average 44 winter and summer 52-55 mpg.