My Prius needs a battery, Toyota denies warranty due to EV button

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 19 2007, 10:24 PM) [snapback]481997[/snapback]</div>

Nate, if you don't mind could you give us the break down of the $4500 dollars? How much was the batteries and how much was labor? I'm curious how much Toyota is paying for batteries. Retail cost to the consumer is usually 7X OEM part cost.

 

Well, la-de-da. The party's over, EV modders. Betcha a quarter that Toyota henceforth instructs dealers to check for it in connection with all warranty work.

 

Perhaps the issue isn't actually the EV button, as in Europe one gets their Prius with a factory installed EV button.

Perhaps, it is the installation.

I can understand Toyota not wanting to be liable for damage that someone, that doesn't know what they are doing, can do to the electrical and HSD system attempting to install an EV button. I'm sure most of the people that are putting them in are competent, and aren't doing damage... but, is every single person that competent? There's always a rogercordia!

There is no way that they are going to use a case-by-case basis for determining if a faulty EV button installation led to a problem -- that isn't cost-effective.

Seriously, there are a lot of people that are doing mods on the electrical and HSD systems, and some of them may be doing more harm than good. If one of them should have, say, and engine fire from it, Toyota has to be able to cover their a$$ by declaring all such modifications as breaking the warranty.

That said, congrats on getting your issue resolved. I believe, as you do, that the issue stemmed from a faulty battery to begin with, and I'm glad that Toyota was willing to negotiate with you, and you aren't out the $4500. Oh, and you still have your darling Prius.

I'd put a Photon Torpedo button there, btw.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 20 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]482216[/snapback]</div>

Thanks! So that puts Toyota's cost at about $550 for a battery pack. Not bad and definitely rules out cost as a reason for not pursuing EV's using NiMH batteries.

 

well this case has me a little worried. i've finally hit 100,000 miles and for the first time, my battery went down to 1 bar and i heard my battery fan come on. i'm still hitting 50's mpg though with tires at 36psi. good thing is that plug in battery tech. is coming along very nice. thx for letting us know your story.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ Jul 20 2007, 03:32 AM) [snapback]482137[/snapback]</div>

I think I will connect my EV button as a "Breakaway Mod". So that I can pull it when I need to take the car in for any major fixes. I think I can run the extra wire up from the connector on the computer so that it desn't look like an add on. Then in some out of the way place that I can get to by just removing the lower glove box, I'll have a quick release connector.

 

Seems to me the engine problem didn't damage the battery. The battery was faulty from the beginning. It just wasn't noticed at the dealer level. In fact, it may have -caused- the engine problem which prompted the software upgrade as the "fix".

I do hate to say "I told you so", but I told you so! All of you. A Toyota corporate executive was reported to have said last winter the EV button would void your battery warranty. Of course, whenever I warned anyone, the "experts" at law all chimed in that they would fight it in court and win! Sure hope they are all rich. I'm afraid in a court of law, the only "experts" on the THS II are employed by Toyota (the designers). Good luck getting one of them to admit in court the EV button doesn't affect the battery.

It was good of Toyota to cover you. For a while there, I was disliking their corporate policies more and more (last 10-15 years). They are back to their greatness it appears.

I wonder if this is a "shot across the bow" to the community. Remove the button or suffer the consequences. Toyota do monitor these forums, and do know what's happening "out there".

 

Hi All,

I think the moral of this story is that if the Engine fails, do not do anything more than stealthing at speed from speed, and only down to three bars State of Charge. If you have to stop, that's it. Pull over, park it, and call for help. The Battery is not meant to be a tow-truck in a hybrid car.

 

This is all so very silly. Yes the button is not in the U.S. cars and we all know why. It has everything to do with emissions and nothing to do with the battery. If you think for a moment that Toyota would have a leg to stand on if they denied a battery warranty claim based an installed EV button, then you are fooling yourself.

I can see it now, a Toyota official is on the stand under oath.

“Sir, let me ask you, is the Prius battery different in any way from the European, Canadian, or Asian market Prius that your company sells?â€

“No.â€

“Could you repeat that for me louder so that everyone in the courtroom can hear?â€

“I said, NO!â€

“Now it is my understanding that you keep all the programming in the car the allows this function to exist in the U.S. Prius however without the button to activate it, and that no other changes have been make to the system that Toyota has designed and assembled. Is this true?â€

“Yes.â€

“If fact you mean to tell me that in all of the millions of Prius you have produced throughout the world that everyone with the EV button is not different in design or electronically then the U.S. Prius except for a little button the only puts a small voltage to ground.â€

“Yes.â€

“Then I just have one more question for you Sir. How In fact did my client who used a button designed and sold by Toyota in other countries, installed properly per Toyota’s specifications, in a car that is electronically identical, that uses an identical battery, knowing that thousands of Americans have done this same install and have run there cars for years with no problems, HOW SIR, IS THIS ONE FAULTY BATERY OUT OF THOUSAND OF OTHER CARS WITH THE SAME BUTTON DAMAGED BY YOUR BUTTON?â€

“I take the 5th.â€

“And, I rest my case.â€

The whole point here is that we are not out to get Toyota. We love the car and we know they could not put the button in because of our crazy laws. I along will many others will keep putting in the EV button and Toyota knows it. Now if someone installs it wrong I would not expect Toyota to cover that, but come on how stupid do you have to be. It is just one wire to ground that costs less then a dollar to do. If you want to get fancy you can buy the real button like me. You are crazy if you think for one moment you would have to be rich to take this to court because any trial layer would jump at the chance to take this case and they would know they would win it. It would be a feather in their cap to have a win against a big global corporation.

Now all things being equal you can’t have Toyota say yeah go ahead and do it, or they would face repercussions from our government that you can bet our domestic automakers would press to be enforced. Long story short is that Toyota made a great car that works and keeps on working. They can’t control the fact that one battery out of what was it, 40,000 went bad, and at the same time they can’t back the EV button. I think there corporate office was brilliant. They honored the warranty that kept them out of a court case they could not win, and at the same time by requiring the removal of the EV button honored the crazy U.S. laws. Everybody’s happy and they saved face.

You don’t really think that they did not know you would put the button back ten minuets after you got the car back, did you?

Toyota you’ve got one great car here and I love it. Yes if I do something crazy with my car and I damage the battery I know I will have to pay for it. At the same time we all know you can’t force the battery below its standard specification using the EV button because if the State of Charge is too low you will get the “Can not enter EV mode now†sign.

The button is there because it works and does not damage the battery. The programming won’t let it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 20 2007, 11:22 AM) [snapback]482216[/snapback]</div>

Yea, it really is. 2008 Highlander hybrid now comes with an EV button duh!

 

I agree that Toyota did what was in Toyota's interest:
1) Take care of the customer to avoid a PR problem
2) Avoid precedent that might invite more claims
3) Avoid upsetting the Feds about tampering with the smog-approved system

Everyone is happy now. I don't view this as some milestone event, it's just aq process that Toyota had to go through (first a "no", then a "yes but just this once") to accomplish all three objectives.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rxmxsh @ Jul 20 2007, 12:18 AM) [snapback]482103[/snapback]</div>

I figure it would be possible to have a procedure set up for the mechanic for whenever you bring the Prius in for whatever reason (even oil change).

1. Look for button marked "EV"
2. With screen on anything but Energy, power up and pull CC for over 2 seconds. Does screen go to Energy?
3. Repeat step 2 by pulling on "Flash to Pass" on headlight stalk. Does screen go to Energy?
4. If "Yes" to any, check "EV" box on sheet.

Then that VIN would be put into an EV databank. You have a problem with the battery and they bring up the VIN, presto, it says you have an EV mod.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarge @ Jul 20 2007, 11:53 AM) [snapback]482236[/snapback]</div>

I wouldn't be too quick to jump to that conclusion. The use of the EV condition may indeed cause some extra stress on the battery (although that seems very doubtful in Nate's case). But just because Toyota provides an EV button does not in and of itself "prove" the EV mod does no harm whatsoever to the HV battery.

Nearly every part on an automobile is built to last within a determined statistical value in order to keep the auto manufacturers costs competitive. Toyota through its marketing department may have determined the EV button was more valuable to buyers in certain countries than others and therefore would be willing to shoulder (via warranty claims or negative customer reactions) a slightly higher probability of premature failure or shortened life of the HV battery as a result of including the EV switch.

As a side note for you Nate, it seems your dealer was clueless regarding the Prius. Perhaps DH can chime in but I would assume if a customer complains about poor fuel mileage and specifically complains that they suspect the HV battery is defective, the dealer should have on hand equipment to automatically do a thorough cycle and capacity test on the Prius HV battery. Your dealer apparently did not.

Rick
#4 2006

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Jul 20 2007, 12:50 PM) [snapback]482323[/snapback]</div>

Why not just also include all the vins from Canada and South America too that are here in the U.S. They already have the EV button? Oh that’s right; because the programming for the EV button prevents the EV button from harming the battery in the first place.

In order for the EV button to damage the OEM battery, Toyota's programming would have to be faulty in all the Prius world wide and who's fault would that be?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(viking31 @ Jul 20 2007, 01:03 PM) [snapback]482331[/snapback]</div>

This is not the case. The only reason the EV button is not in the U.S. Prius is because of our Environmental Standards. It has now barring on whether or not the added use of the battery would cause it to fall below specification set by Toyota.

 

I agree with Cheap's comment on the use of the EV button, if the car won't agree to it you don't get to use it.

 

I also agree wth Cheap's thinking, BUT Nate has many more resources than I do to face off with Toyota Corporate and we all saw what he did. It looks like we would do very well to take his advice.

It is not a question of who is right. It is a question of who wins when push comes to shove.