Featured Motortrend: Prime vs Volt (and other alt. vehicle comparisons)

Definitely!

 

My post was also meant for others reading.

People have done it with a sub 100 mile range Leaf, but I would insist on a Tesla if I had to do it. The networks for other DC chargers aren't up to Supercharger access and speeds yet.

My parents are about 600 miles away(and likely close to you). If the stars align favorably, we could probably make the trip in under ten hours. Closer to eleven is the norm, but traffic once made it fourteen. A Model S will add about an hour to that. Sounds like a lot until you consider that hour addition is to a travel time for a straight through drive. On a trip that takes half a day, we, and likely most others, aren't driving straight through. that hour of charging can be lined up with stops for a meal and other breaks. Taking a Tesla will still add time over an ICE car, but the increased break periods could reduce the stress and discomfort from sitting in a car for such an extended time.

Also remember the planning and worry about available fuel were also factors in taking a gasoline car on a long trip when they were new.

Back when I had the gen2 Prius, there were reports of hybrid drivers having reduced stress levels. People thought the Prius was a slow car, but the truth is that we were all less tense, and driving on island time.

Going to a BEV does require a mental shift that some today can't make. We at the BEV collective have no intention of forcing the cars on people. We'll use PHEVs to lure them in.

PHEVs are a great solution for many, but they do have compromises in the design to make carrying around a hybrid drive train and large battery pack. If a second car is an option, a BEV plus something else might be a better meet all your vehicle needs.

There are a couple of threads here about a report from UBS on the production costs of the Bolt and Model 3. In 2018, they are forecasting a BEV's total cost of ownership will become even to that of a traditional car. At that point, the sales will increase, and 14% of global new car sales will be EVs by 2025. That is a 50% increase from their previous forecast on the EV sales rate over the same time.

The vast majority of the miles a car is driven is from commuting; a regular trip of a known distance. That distance for many is fixed, and be met by the Ioniq Electric or even shorter range BEVs. An overnight charge will meet those needs now. Public chargers will help extend the BEV's usefulness beyond the person's typical daily needs, but they are more important for easing the public's anxiety over electric cars.

People believe they need a car that can do everything for them; including things they'll never actually do. With many households having two or more cars, that is not an actual need. The other cars are there to cover for when the BEV won't work. That's not every household, but enough to support enough BEV sales to have a large impact on our energy use and attending issues. People are also wary and even fearful of new things. So a BEV charging while they are shopping or having a coffee becomes a mental hurdle to seeing the car's possibilities.

Meanwhile, they give no thought to having to dispense a flammable, hazardous, and smelly petrochemical with no PPE and essentially no training into their car because it is simply familiar.

It may not have occurred to whoever made the graph that a suitcase can stand on the narrow long side. Without addressing the cargo space/trunk width, that could be even more deceiving. As is for the Ioniq Electric, you see there is some space behind and on top of the suitcase. Turn it onto that narrow long side, and you only have space behind it.

The graphic is not perfect, but it is still useful for researching the cars. Without it, we are left with a simple volume number, and maybe some photos taken under different lighting conditions and even at different angles.

I can't say with 100% certainty, but I'd bet most states have laws against leaving a fuel pump unattended. You are stuck there while the tank fills. So some protection from the elements is a need for customers and employees.

I'll never claim plugging in an EV in poor weather would be pleasant, but there isn't any risk to you or the car, but you can go inside, do your shopping, grab a meal, or even watch a movie while the battery is 'filling'. Sitting in the EV is also an option. Which I think wouldn't be disallowed by law when filling a gasoline car, but doing so in an EV doesn't have a fire risk.

 

Trollbait thanks My question might have been better phrased: While I am arranging to pay (if that is required by that type of charger station) and arranging the cord and such I'll have my hands busy which makes holding an umbrella an impossibility. So are most charging stations sufficiently covered that I'm dry while I'm hooking up, paying etc till I reach in the car and pull out the umbrella to walk into the store etc? With gas, if it is raining, I can usually choose a station which has the max coverage and even the pump that gives me the most coverage.

Somewhere in school they asked compare and contrast questions. I still ask them to try an understand things I have little experience of.

 

I can always plug in at a public station with just one hand. Could easily do it while holding an umbrella if needed.

 

from my experience, most charging stations are not under cover, but i have no idea how to qualify that.

 

I remember some folks driving from Oregon to Texas in a 1980 Comutacar EV, every 30 miles give or take they stopped at a guys house or a campground or wherever overnight then went site seeing in the area on a bicycle.

Seems like an old EV1 did it as well as did the old Mars electric car in the 60's

Depends on your mindset, I guess that's why I like my Volt, I only need to gas up every 2000 miles give or take meaning few "gas stops " and like 10 seconds a day to slip in a cord. (Good Lord the horror)

So if you don't like gas stops I guess your a "Prime" candidate. (Or a Volt)

 

Yep, both were in the running, as well as a C-Max Energi for a little while, I chose the Prime. It's on order, but not in yet. I started "shopping" quite some time ago, and it just fits my needs and personality as well as it gets. (well, at least until I actually have been driving it awhile. <g>)

I don't mind the 10 seconds to plug it in it's the 10 hours that it's on the charger and unavailable to go to work that I have a problem with. The Prime has those same 10 seconds.

It's stupid, but the Volt disqualified itself because of only the dark interiors available on the Premier, and I'm not going without a DRCC, and it's too hot here for dark interiors! The charging time was a secondary problem. I could have purchased a Volt as soon as I made the decision, but no, I have to wait months for a Prime... <grrrrrrrrr> . There's certainly a lot to like about the Volt though, and I would have had a L2 charger put in if I did. Wish it had a better ICE though for my longer than 53 mile commute

 

When filling my gas tank, I pay first and then take the nozzle off the pump. These are one hand operations, and I don't see how an EV charger would require you to both pay and plug in at the exact same time. Getting the card out to pay could require more than one hand, but that can be done before getting out of the car.

If I had an on call job, I would only consider a BEV if a DC Level 2 charger was reasonably available. Luckily, there are high efficiency and PHEV options for those in which a BEV won't work, and BEV success does not depend on selling to those in which they won't work.

Did you take a look for the closest Supercharger for a Model 3 option?
Supercharger | Tesla

Why would the Volt really need a better hybrid fuel efficiency in your case? If I got your commute distance right, a Volt will use 0.5 to 0.6 of a gallon of gas each day. The Prime you are getting will use 0.9 to a full gallon each day. The Volt does use more electricity, but that may or may not matter depending on the reasons for getting a plug in.

 

It looks cool and is definitely workable in local situations, but the model 3 isn't available yet and the other Teslas are more than I want to pay for a car. No Telsa "filling" stations around here either which is a biggy if you run out away from home. Maybe when the infrastructure gets better and either Tesla is bigger or there's some other equivalent competitor. Now put a range extending ICE in a Tesla and price it like the Volt, ... (yeah, I'm dreaming!)

Better gas mileage than <42MPG of course, same reason I drive a Prius now and ordered a Prime. And yes, I believe the Volt would be slightly less costly to run than the prime on my normal commute, but not by a great margin, and if I have to go further than 90 miles in a day, without a charge in the middle, the Prime passes the Volt and it only gets worse for the volt from there. If it had a similar ICE and gas mileage to the Prime, that wouldn't be the case -- the Volt would be the hands down winner for a lot longer miles. If I do something as simple as going to lunch out, I easily go over the 90 mile range. I just can't understand why they aren't using something more efficient anyway, and that bothers my inner geek. I the the drivetrain is different, so it may not be possible, but I'd still want it.

As for why i'm getting a plug in, it's the same, enhancing my gas mileage. I'm not the type that wants an EV full time (in engine response, acceleration, smoothness), after all I've been driving a normal Prius for the last 7 years. I just want to get better gas mileage and less trips to the gas station. Otherwise I'd buy something better like Mustang, or Subaru, or , ...

I really like Subaru's, but they just don't get the gas mileage I want and there's really no winter driving here... (Subaru's are *fun* to drive)

 

Guessing once you get the PHEV you will catch the EV bug like the rest of us. Maybe the best part about EV's no one has mentioned here...virtually no maintenance. No oil changes to worry about. And your next car I'm sure the EV charging situation in your area will be much improved.

OT...when we buy the Model 3 for our next vehicle...I think there is a chance it may be the last vehicle we fully own by ourselves. With vehicle automation it is likely that not as many people will own cars or maybe there will be an ownership sharing type system. Not sure, but I believe some sort of variation of that is sooner than most people think.

 

CHAdeMO and CCS are the two other DC charging standards in the US. CHAdeMO is a Japanese standard well represented on the West Coast, and I don't see the next Leaf with improved range not using it. CCS is the SAE Frankenplug standard supported by the US and German car manufacturers. Hyundai has moved to CCS for the North American market with the Ioniq Electric.

Beyond the companies having dealerships that sell their BEV install a DC charger, there isn't any central planning to the charger networks as there is with Tesla's Superchargers. So their growth is going to be organic. While both standards have the potential to matching the Supercharger in speed, the fastest charger out there is 50kW. The first Superchargers might have been 70kW; most are 90kW to 120kW now.

The other car companies are free to use the Supercharger standard, but they would have to pay for access to the network.

Okay if you are exceeding that tipping point regularly.

As for GM not making the hybrid side as efficient as possible, everything has a price. Without incentives, the Volt is over $6000 more than the Prime. GM could easily have used the ICE from the Malibu hybrid, but that would increased the Volt's already over 30 grand price more. Then for many potential buyers, exceeding that 90 mile tipping point will be something that happens a handful to a dozen times a year.

GM used a less efficient ICE in the Volt for the same reason Toyota choose not to use a larger battery in the Prime. Car design is a balancing act of capabilities and price in order the be sellable. The original Insight got better fuel efficiency than the Prius of the time, but few people want just two seats in a car. The XL1 could do better than 100mpg, but even fewer people will pay $150k for such efficiency.

 

Maybe I'll catch the bug, I wont know until I do, but given it will only be part of my commute, I kind of doubt it. Definitely a good point about the lower normal maintenance though!

As for the automated car idea, it's something I also think will come to pass and I wont mind a bit -- I'll be one of the first to embrace that ideal as getting from a to b is the most important thing for me. I've worked in the same job for 22 years and put about 300K+ miles on my various cars -- I'm tired of worrying about driving. Hence my like of DRCC (the biggest stress releaver of all time), and all the other "goodies" that make driving safer. I kind of doubt that it will be soon enough for me, but you never know..

 

You should probably get off the road now then since you live in CA. At most times I would think you probably have a Tesla somewhere in your vicinity that has autopilot enabled. Full autonomy will be here within a few more years. You seriously don't think these automakers have planned for hackers? They will have so much redundancy built in.

 

hacking issues aside...you think humans can drive better than AI?

 

AI is still learning. Remember that AI is designed and coded by humans and that for every 3 bugs fixed and new and as yet undetected bug is introduced. Code that has run reliably without errors for years can still be tripped up by an unanticipated event.

 

haha...I forget that the average age of the PriusChatter is 60+ (ie. scared of AI and autonomy)

 

Hey, I'm only 57! (and I have always been into AI.)

I understand their concern though as an IT guy too, but there's one thing that autonomous cars have that our older IT tech doesn't -- it's growing up in the age of hacking, so it's not trying to harden existing systems, it's systems written for that in mind from the beginning.

I don't see how a human possibly could outdrive an AI in normal situations, but there are sometimes abnormal situations to deal with and we wetware brains have the edge on that.