Featured Motor Mouth: Why hydrogen might be the simple solution to ICE emissions

Also, there is no warning. Batteries use less than normal little by little. Compression tanks just suddenly.. KABOOM!

Still, compressed gas is something that seems like it should be easier to do. Why do tanks fail after a certain amount of years?

On the other hand, it looks like you can get tanks still for older CNG vehicles, albeit not an exact fit. But I don't see very much being done for aftermarket EV batteries. When the car manufacturer drops the car, you probably will never be able to get replacement batteries again.

 

most people don't keep their cars long enough to be concerned about these things

 

Full composite tanks for CNG are now good for 25 years since date of manufacturer; hydrogen is 15 years. They wear out from the pressurization cycles; they do some flexing while being filled.

Maybe a BEV battery can last longer than that, but that doesn't mean the car has a viable range. Replacement tanks are going to be cheaper. There is a fairly wide selection of CNG ones. But then there is the ICE maintenance or fuel cell replacement.

This is a non-zero risk of fire as batteries age. Saw one report suggesting the rethinking of repurposing old EV batteries for that reason.

Those that buy new won't be concerned, but it will affect their trade in value.

 

how much trade in value does a 20 year old gasser have?

 

Which is also why cars like the Nissan Leaf plummets in price as it gets near the end of it's warranty period (or did before COVID).

This can change some car buyers minds. If they know their car will be worthless after 5 or 10 years they may not want to buy it in the first place. It's one thing to buy a $30k or $40k and sell it for half 5 years later. It's another to have to give it away for free.

This is like someone saying I should buy a used EV again. The last one the battery didn't hold up like I expected. How am I supposed to expect a used EV with a couple years of warranty to last me at least as long as the loan payments? I'd be better off saving up and buying a brand new one, except when I go to sell it or trade it in, it may not be worth hardly anything.

By comparison, my Avalon is still apparently worth around $10,000 according to KBB. Now that is in part due to COVID prices, but at even if it were cheaper at least it seems like a car that will last another 4 or 5 years.

More than a 20 year old battery-er I would guess.

 

Seems like it used to be 7 or 8 years. So that's improvement!

Now time for me to find a replacment battery for the Prius... (and do a CNG conversion while I'm at it. )

 

you have an experience negative bias. i understand, but most people don't.
have you priced a 5 year old tesla?

 

I've priced Teslas from new to the oldest I can find for sale. There are people claiming to get over 400,000 miles out of a Tesla and still having good range, still over 200 miles. Hence, one reason they hold their value.

A 10 year old Nissan leaf with 23 miles of range isn't worth very much.

I'm so tempted to trade my Avalon in for this:

2013 Tesla Model S Standard For Sale in Salt Lake City, UT - 5YJSA1DN8DFP06769 - TrueCar

 

Yes, I may have been exagerating or meant another used Leaf.

Hopefully used Bolt prices come down. That would be a sweet deal!

 

that looks like a great deal on the model s

 

If it didn't have a salvaged title I'd buy it right now. I could sell the Avalon and only owe some $5,000 to $7,000 on it.

 

The 25 years for CNG tanks are the most expensive. A personal car manufacturer can choose something with less life for lower cost.

Most people hang on to a car for about 5 years. How will the used car buyer feel about a car with a part that will cost over a $1000 to replace in 8 to 10 years vs one that can conceivably last until the rust gets it?

 

so far, they seem to be fine with used ev's

 

That could be part of the early adopter fans. People who want an EV want an EV, not necessarily a car that makes financial sense. There seems to be a much larger fan base for BEV's than for CNGV's.

When BEV's take up a large percentage of vehicles on the road, say 50% or better, you'll have more competition of used cars to buy from and used EV prices should go down. I think in the beginning the used Leaf prices plumetted not because there were a lot of bad Leafs yet, but because there wasn't an EV following yet and people were afraid to buy something that could become a dud (and did).

 

That's a CNG vehicle. I can't imagine what you google searched to try to make your point. Yes, I get that hydrogen tanks store gas at even higher pressure. But they are also better engineered. Just because a suspension bridge collapsed somewhere doesn't mean that bridges capable of allowing heavy trucks to pass across aren't feasible.

 

Japan to invest heavily in hydrogen for energy sector - UPI.com
"June 6 (UPI) -- A massive investment of more than $100 billion will go toward building up hydrogen in the Japanese energy sector, the government announced Tuesday.

A revised hydrogen strategy outlines $107 billion over the next 14 years to increase the hydrogen supply in the island nation to some 12 million tons from 2 million tons."

Toyota CEO Unveils Revolutionary Hydrogen Engine - YouTube

The Traditional Combustion Engine Could Be Replaced with a tiny 22-lb Hydrogen Engine – Engineerine

Yamaha Is Helping Lexus With A Revolutionary New Hydrogen V-8 Sports Car (topspeed.com)

Hyundai to produce Hydrogen combustion engines on a large scale from 2025 - Green Hydrogen News (energynews.biz)

The Hydrogen Electric Vehicle Revolution Is Coming (topspeed.com)
"Furthermore, for trucks and vans, batteries may be too heavy and have a long charging time while simultaneously straining power grids across the globe. The interest in utilizing hydrogen fuel cell technology to power these heavier vehicles is gaining momentum as fleets consider a more practical alternative."


Individuals who discount innovation, technological advances and unforeseen scientific discoveries often are caught by surprise at human and scientific ingenuity.

There will come a time in our world where people will see waiting for 30 minutes to 60 minutes to charge a vehicle as an antiquated quaint reminder of the way things used to be.

 

It’s Not Necessary to Change. Survival Is Not Mandatory.
- W. Edward Demming​

Bob Willson

 

"Japan is leaning on hydrogen produced from a fossil-fuel feedstock. It could nevertheless help address decarbonization goals, ensure a secure source of energy and support economic growth."

They could be making 'blue' hydrogen by sequestering the CO2 produced. Then again, they could do the reformation in other countries, and ignore the CO2 emission since they didn't occur at home.

Hydrogen ICEs aren't new. BMW and Mazda actually sold some bi-fuel cars in limited markets. California's ZEV program treated them like PHEVs from the beginning. There are reasons, besides the hydrogen fuel ones, why no one released even a compliance one for ZEV credits. The bi-fuel cars suffered a major loss in power output or efficiency when burning hydrogen. An engine designed for it should improve upon that, which leaves emissions.

Combustion with air means NOx. A three way catalytic converter can not simply be added to an hydrogen engine. Those need a mix of NOx, CO, and hydrocarbons in the right proportions in order to neutralize all three. An hydrogen engine could need SCR like a diesel.

Then this doesn't address the issues with the fuel storage on the car. The bulky tanks take up more space than a battery in BEV, and the total package ends up close in curb weight between the two. A FECV has a little more range than the BEV, and H-ICE will have less.

If a car company was serious about bringing about hydrogen powered cars, they should have started with ICE models. Cheaper to buy, more will get on the road, and that will support the growth of the infrastructure. Instead they focused on FCEV in the beginning, since that yielded more regulatory credits per car. Now EVs have a strong beach head in the market.

The linear engine is interesting. I think Toyota was working on one as a generator. I assume that is what the one in the article is. They can be made for other fuels, and could work out as a range extender for a plug in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-piston_engine

350kW chargers and EVs designed for them can charge in 15 to 20 minutes. The 3 to 5 minute fill times of hydrogen that get quoted depend on the temperature in the car's tank not being too hot, and the hydrogen at the station being pressurized and extremely cold. Conditions outside of those extends the fill time. So refueling a hydrogen car can take as long as charging an EV, if the system allows refueling to happen.

 

AND.....those who count on future discoveries and innovations blindly......often go broke (or die) waiting for things that never happen.