... might be wise thinking twice, putting bumper stickers ~

WTheck, EBC??? Are you a bureaucrat by chance? Your reply makes no sense as a reply to anything I wrote. It's just a very poor attempt at defending bureaucrats. And what's with calling the vast majority of Americans "willfully ignorant." I agree, you left stupefied, but did you ever think of going back?

Disclaimer: I argue the way I was taught in law school, which means I disrespect those who disrespect me. Posting this hooey that doesn't address any of my argument is disrespectful, as is insinuating that I'm ignorant - thus, the same, except I do it by addressing his nonsense, not ignoring it, because I have integrity.

I made these points:

1. People can't confirm for themselves that their votes were counted. EBC doesn't deny or address that. He just says to trust the anonymous bureaucrats because...they stupefied him with their complicated process that he couldn't understand.

2. The US has fought over big gov vs small gov for our entire history; it's the single overarching disagreement behind our greatest struggles. EBC doesn't deny or address that, but he exhibits it as he argues for the secretive big-government solution over my transparent no-government solution. Thanks for making it clear in real terms, EBC.

3. Ergo, bureaucrats and USPS employees have an inherent, undeniable conflict of interest and shouldn't be allowed to control secret elections. EBC doesn't address any of that. Instead, he demands that we just trust the bureaucrats because...they stupefied him with their complicated process he couldn't understand. Are you seeing the pattern?

He doesn't say why we should trust the random, unionized USPS letter carriers to faithfully deliver the ballots that could cost them their jobs. Maybe he can explain how the bureaucrats, with their stupefying and complicated process, make sure that all voters actually receive the ballots mailed to them and how they make sure that all the ballots mailed back by voters are actually received and counted. But, I don't think EBC knows, just like no one else knows.

4. I've described a simple process that solves the problems I've identified and EBC ignores. He doesn't address that solution, much less say why it can't work or isn't better. Instead, he just claims that everyone who does see those problems, everyone who does want a better and more transparent election process, are just "willfully ignorant." This from someone who has just willfully and ignorantly refused to address anything I said.

The fact is, a sizeable majority of Americans, from both parties depending on whose candidate wins, don't trust the elections. In 2016, Democrats thought the election was rigged - they wasted tens of millions of dollars and two years on a phony Russian collusion investigation that never produced a single piece of court room evidence of such a collusion. Then, 2020 came and the other half of the country doesn't believe the elections. EBC claims all 150 million or so of those voters are willfully ignorant.

Finally, I'd address what he said about me being in Texas, except it's senseless. I haven't a clue what he means, and I'm someone who made a great living for many years deciphering written opinions.

I'll stand by my solution, exactly because of people like EBC - some of them could become election officials and postal carriers, and we don't need either.

 

Yep, billions of dollars in theft and destruction. Obviously highly organized as it went from city to city rioting and looting. Lasted for months and months. Kinda like the way socialists don't remember how much they distrusted elections in 2016.

 

LOL, I had one of my diesel trucks keyed - probably by some Prius owner. And I've had diesel trucks screw with me in my Prii.

 

I'm pretty sure ETC is/has been exactly as much of a 'bureaucrat' as I have been when taking the civic opportunity to work as an election judge or clerk or whatever your jurisdiction may call it.

I will go so far with you as to talk shade about the voting machines we usta use in this county ... starting around 20 years ago, they were "direct-recording electronic"; your vote turned into nothing but invisible bits in the machine's memory, and tallying the votes meant asking the machine to say how many bits, and a recount meant asking it again. There was no redundant record whatsoever to compare it to.

It wasn't even just a one-off mistake; the county made more expensive purchases over the years to get later and greater direct-recording electronic machines.

They saw the light at last and have been using machines with a paper trail for a few cycles now. You see the paper go by with your votes on it, and you confirm they are what you intended. The machine still also keeps the tally, but now there's something to compare it to.

Routine random-sample audits are enough to keep me happy, as long as they are genuinely routine and genuinely random, and not solely done in the cases where somebody's hoping to pull out a win inside the margin of error.

 

A reasonable response. Of course, ostriches have a reasonable response as well. It seems that you and EBC are in the minority of Americans satisfied with the election system in place. Which, honestly, means that y'all shouldn't matter; you're not offering any solutions to an issue that has been and still is a major problem for a majority of Americans. There are bills introduced in Congress by both parties to make changes. I've lost count of how many states have changed their voting processes in the last 10 years, and some later changed the changes. And they're still arguing, and nothing is being done, because it's not about what's best for Americans. It's not about what's most fair, most transparent, most accurate. It's only about what can keep the bureaucrats in control over the huddled masses.

To just do nothing, while faith in our elections erodes, is not what normal, intelligent people do. Belief in the undeniably broken status quo is not a solution. I'll even argue that trusting bureaucrats cannot be scientifically supported, just like science would conclude that we shouldn't trust almost everyone, even scientists. And yet, you do. I don't get it. When there's a simple way that means you don't have to trust anyone, nobody does. What is wrong with that? Why prefer the huge monstrosity of secret machines and faceless, unelected, conflicted-as-heck bureaucrats and letter carriers with the most important thing in this country?

That's not reasonable or logical. It's what people think who want to be led, who don't want to think, who don't want personal responsibility. It's for people who play slot machines - watch the pretty lights, the spinning wheels, but don't have anything to do with the result, don't make any real choices except to pull the lever/push the button. You lost and the guy on the next machine won? Oh well, trust Vegas.

The part that I don't think you two get is that the complicated process and updated software mean nothing if people don't believe. And if people don't believe, it's not really an election. It's what Putin calls "elections." It'll be like Latin American elections soon, if we don't do something.

Tell me you don't remember Mueller, who didn't even discover the deception that Durham uncovered. What a waste of everyone's time. All those Democrats/socialists raging about election cheating, all those people who said Trump didn't win. Tens of millions of voters didn't believe in our elections. Those same people still wouldn't believe in our elections if Trump had won in 2020. You know that is true. Everyone knows that is true. And all those Jan6 rioters? They'd be calling the socialists election deniers. You know that is true.

Maybe you'll answer the question I asked EBC. How did the Indiana system ensure that postal carriers delivered ballots - both to voters and back to the election officials?

It's not an insignificant issue, but none of the pols will even discuss it.

 

you mean they repaired the window they smashed to get in?

 

you mean they replaced the window they smashed to get in?

proud-boys-jan-6-testimony-6aed3489f86af1b3ed0c4b8e876768c4

 

I thought that he now votes, and does his election worker side job, in Florida, not Indiana.

A couple thousand miles away in my area, with all mail-in voting, we can go on-line with the county and track our ballots through several steps: Has it been mailed to us? Has it been received back from us? Has the signature been verified?

Complaints from voters who didn't receive their ballots from the USPS have been very sparse, a bit surprising considering their rate of mishandling other mail, especially since DeJoy was appointed Postmaster and slowed things down a bit. And there is are a couple ways to get replacements for missing ballots.

Complaints from voters whose ballots were not received by the Elections office seem even more sparse, likely because so many of us return our ballots to official vote drop boxes instead of through the USPS.

Complaints from voters about their signatures being rejected, do exist, but not on a scale that anyone would consider nefarious. The Elections office does contact these voters, giving them opportunity to 'cure' their signatures before the counting deadline, and most such cases are cured.

There are plenty of opportunities for doubters to go watch the process and/or get audit results. When I check the ballot tracking on my votes, whether I return them early (nearly 3 weeks before Election Day) or mid-period or last minute, the tracker is fairly consistent in confirming reception in a couple days. And signature verification in another couple days.

With so many elections here, up to five in a year (general, Presidential primary, all-others primary, school levies, special election for other propositions or levies, etc., varying by local districts), most voters in my state love voting entirely be mail. Your proposed repeal of mail-in, forcing in-person voting, ain't gonna happen without causing a nasty rebellion.

For the few who really want to vote in person -- or start a travel absence before their ballot arrives -- there is one county location where anyone can vote anytime during the three-week voting period. Just drop in, they'll look up your registration and print out a raw ballot for your precinct, which you can vote, seal in its envelope, sign, and hand right back to them. And track on-line the same as if you voted through the standard process.

Out here, any in-person voting requirement is dead and buried. Even before the traditional poll stations were closed, mail-in voting had greatly boosted turnout. The spouse and I much prefer to spend a couple days combing through the many down-ballot contests in the official voter pamphlet statements, having time to go look up details and conflicting endorsements from differing editorial and interest groups. This does take more time than when we used to go a polling station and judge numerous of those down-ballot issues with almost no information, but we are making better choices now.

 

A sort of tangential question is starting to form in my mind, whether your persistent misspelling of ETC's handle is just a mistake or some gesture of insolent flair, like the member in some earlier thread who kept calling TMR-JWAP "wap". (That last one nearly went over my head; if I'd been just a smidge less aware of pop culture, it would have.)

Doesn't come off as a great look.

I understand that it's recently become a thing to say "everybody knows X is true" as a way to convince a listener that X is true in one step, but I will unashamedly admit that when I was learning about logic and evidence it was way back in the murky depths of time before that became a thing. We had to marshal evidence, identify sources, address discrepancies, and do it all while walking uphill both ways.

 

I think he meant "compared to" and not "based on." He was pointing out that other protesters have caused exponentially more damage and loss of life.

 

I don’t see the point of the comment, of course’both sides do it’, mine was a response to the ignorant op.

 

NP, just my editor coming out.

 

The recent building takeover................the news article actually included a photo of a 'person' (fully covered in facemasks) smashing windows with a hammer.........ironic....

California State Polytechnic University, Humboldt, or simply Cal Poly Humboldt, condemned the "lawless behavior" of the agitators and said the current rebellion "has nothing to do with free speech or freedom of inquiry."

"It is lawless behavior that has harmed the vast majority of our students whose education has been interrupted, damaged the reputation of our school, and drained resources from the accomplishment of our core educational purpose," said the university located in Arcata. As a result, the school added, it will be forced to shell out "millions" to repair the facilities. But, the true cost could be even worse.

"That includes damage done by theft, vandalism and graffiti, and the supplies and personnel needed to repair that, in addition to the loss of revenue from disruption to university operations," the university said. "But the true cost has been the disruption of the education of our students who came here to learn and get a college degree."

 

and your point is?

 

So do the critics of campus protests also condemn the Jan 6 mob? Jan 6 involved deaths along with death threats.

Bob Wilson

 

I'm remembering Mueller's investigation as being shorter but far more productive than Durham's investigation.

Durham issued 3 indictments, which led to 2 acquittals, and 1 guilty plea that led to probation, no incarceration.

Mueller issued 34 individual and 3 corporate indictments, leading to 8 felony convictions or guilty pleas, plus lots of criminal referrals to other agencies, a fairly clearly stated boundary for his investigation with a statement that further investigation was likely to reveal more crimes, and a report written just like a pre-indictment probable cause statement against the POTUS for obstruction of justice, for future use once he was out of office.

 

From Columbia University this evening:

"We believe that the group that broke into and occupied the building is led by individuals who are not affiliated with the University. "

 

In any protest, there will be bad actors with different agendas.
It’s up to the authorities to sort them out.

 

My continued anonymity is much more valuable to me than risking it all by using my vehicle as a social commentary billboard.