March Volt numbers are in - 2,289

not in a million years. i have the Motorola Droid Bionic. its LTE ability is a power hog to the point that selling it with a standard battery is simply a waste of time.

so i got the extended battery which adds some bulk to it but at least i can make it thru the day. now the extended battery has 75% more capacity and some days i put it on the charger with 60% SOC, some days less than 30

 

the price increase was largely due to the exchange rates being so scewed. as far as selling Leafs locally, the volume will not increase unless demand somewhere else is reduced which is not likely to happen.

right now the "book" capacity of the Opama Plant is 50K. they only made it to just over 30K last year. there is no Leafs piling up anywhere in the world right now.

Ghosn has admitted that sales were lower than expected but at the same time part of that is due to worse than expected European finances and the Tsunami.

he pretty much stated that volumes for the US will stay under 1000 units a month until the TN plant comes online. that will provide 150,000 units (only 50-75,000 slated for the US market) without the penalty of the poor exchange rate of the dollar/Yen.

now, he did not say it outright, but the general consensus is a price drop for 2013. keep in mind; it is Nissan's plan to have a lower priced Leaf well before the fed tax credit ends for them. with the 150K for TN coming online at the end of 2012 and another 50K plant in England coming online end of 2013 plus unspecified expanded production in Japan/Asia, they hope to have a half million a year capacity for Leaf gen 2

 

Yes I did. My iPhone, battery wise, runs circles around my lighter, cheaper Samsung droid product. Even being 2 years old with more processes running (BT, wi-fi, etc), the iPhone still has a higher SOC at the end of the day.

I believe even early PHEV adopter/enthusiasts will charge less as the "shine" wears off and the search/wait for chargers becomes a PITA. I further believe the general driving population won't tolerate multi-charges per day. Crap, they're too lazy to even get out of their cars for a Big Mac.

 

The point that I, and others, are trying to make isn't that people won't make use of chargers. It's that being able to fully charge a PHV's battery do to it being smaller isn't an advantage over one with a larger pack. Current models' electric fuel economy are close enough that they will all get around the same range on 30 minutes of charge.

We feel the larger battery in a PHV is better in that you don't have to concern yourself with whether there is a charger, or if it's being used, when going somewhere. It also means that you could leave a charge space open for pure BEVs as they become more, while still retaining EV range.

The only real useful point of the charge time specification is to let a potential buyer know if they'll need a level 2 charger installed with their expected use of the car. When charging outside of home when time charging might be cut short, the charge rate of EV range gained per time charging is what should be compared. This is what actually matters to a potential user. And, except for built in fast chargers, and exceptional efficiency, low or high, this is around the same for all available plug ins now.

Having chargers available will help sell BEVs, because they will help lower the general public's unease about them. Not with PHVs though. It appears most people buying a PHV now couldn't get a BEV do to availability or vehicle needs. In which case, increased charges may allow a PHV buyer to get a BEV. Though, I admit it could lead to some of them to opt for a PHV with a smaller pack.

I don't see more chargers moving more non-plug in drivers to a PHV. Whatever the reason for them finding a PHV unappealing, more chargers isn't likely to overcome that.

I do have an honest kudos for people spreading the word of EVs

+1
Range between fill ups is a selling point because getting gas is seen as a hassle.

 

Then, why are you still driving a non-hybrid?

If I were to save thousands of $, get a midsize interior and a bunch of extra standard options and 50 MPG on regular gas, I would gladly recharge at every public chargers on every opportunity.

Multiple recharges are optional, not a necessity like some of you are making out to be. You bought the gas (or diesel) car to refuel at a gas station (outside home) right? So, how is it different than getting a PHV to recharge outside home? 50 MPG gas engine makes it worth it, IMHO. It will become more attractive as the cost of the small battery plugin option drops.

I agree that having to recharge once a day is a great convinence feature. However, there are a lot of drawbacks. The new iPad vs iPad2 is a good analogy. As the battery matures, the drawbacks will be gone and we'll get a PHV with more EV range with 50 MPG gas engine.

The current government incentive does not favor a small durable battery pack designed for multiple recharges per day. It favors a big battery as tax credit is determined by kWh regardless of the number of cycles. Toyota is going against "conventional wisdom" and some people don't understand why they don't put a bigger battery. There are times when less is more.

The average trip length is under 13 miles. That makes a full recharge worth it. Any PHV battery bigger than 13 miles would be diminishing in return.

 

Only time will tell how people's PHV 'charging habits' play out over time - will they seek and use all opportunities (one end) or might others get a little lazy about it after a few years? yes and yes?

I would stay on the charger because I've come to know the thing I don't like most about 'regular' Prius ....

the loss in MPGs due to short, 1 mile ish trips to store. The dreaded warm up cycle. It's like, come on, turn off ya darn ICE.

Anyone else relate?

Just as full hybrid turns low conventional city MPG on its head, PHV eliminates short trip MPG blues.

 

Ah... See what you did here, you acknowledged that the small battery is a disadvantage, not an advantage as you have been claiming. I don't think any one here that was arguing with you has said the prius phv is a bad choice.

We have recharging at work and/or home which a car will naturally sit. Definitely if these are available they are fair game. Public chargers are a different matter. It takes much longer than a gas station to charge a car, and there are much fewer chargers. How many people would switch to PHEVs and charge at home, if it took an hour to add 1/5 of a gallon of gas to the car, which is faster than a prius phv actually charges. Quick chargers L3 are not an option on the phv, volt, or energi in this model year, and there are less than 100 in the country.

Certainly the govrernment incentive is higher for small batteries. Take the prius phv versus the leaf. The phv is mainly a different battery than the prius liftback and gets $2500, the leaf gets only 3x that $7500 for a completely redesigned car and a battery that will provide 7x the electric miles. The incentives are to push the battery and motor technology, and the prius only gives it a little push, but gets a big chunk of the incentive. Tesla S with a 85kwh battery compared to the prius phv still only gets 3x. Part of the reason for incentivising phevs instead of just BEVs is they do not require the large public investment for a recharging infrastructure.

We know why the battery is that size toyota designed it saying batteries would cost $1200/kwh. Others expected prices to drop. According to Panasonics price releases battery prices have dropped

That sounds like the same kind of talk edmunds used to decide the prius is not worth the extra money over a corolla We shall see how people charge their phv in the future. If someone is only driving 13 miles most days, or recharging at work, its a great choice. If they are driving 30 between charges it makes less sense. Choices are good.

 

+1
Batteries are the biggest expense of a plug-in. Many have expressed interest in some type of plug in, but are hesitant with the price of the car, and decide to wait for prices to drop. However, if demand is low, the manufacturer's incentive to ramp up production and invest in battery R&D will also be low, which keeps prices high. Progress wouldn't stop, but an incentive to subsidize the battery can speed it up.

The $2500 probably covers a larger percentage of the P-PHV's battery costs than $7500 does of the Volt's and Leaf's.

Until the income covering the payments was lost, I had a 2005 driftwood Prius three. I was averaging 58 to 62mpg before I sold it.

I have no interest in the gen3. A friend thought it was great it got bigger and more powerful. I saw that as a minus, and word that it is more difficult to hypermile with a lower potential than the gen2 was it for it.
The v might work as replacement for the wife's car, because that's our roadtrip vehicle. She has a bad back, so comfort has to be greatly improved over the gen2.
The c intrigues me, but I'm not in the market now.
My commute is 60 miles round trip, with no charging at work. (Aside: do people consider potential trip hazard from the cord when considering charging at work?) So a PHV is just a more expensive gen3 to me.

 

Different for Prius PHV how?

The duration you're at a movie or restaurant or coffeeshop or mall is the same as what it takes to fully recharge.

In other words, don't over-generalize like that.
.

 

gas has to go up, electricity has to come down. do our politicians have the stomach for it? aye, there's the rub laddy.

 

I think charge time might hurt big volume public charging. Say 6 charge points installed at cinema / restaurant complex maybe $3k per install, $18k.

Can accomodate only 6 PHV's, one per 2 hour movie or dinner. There are hundreds of cars that park at places like that, at least at our 25 theatre cineplex.

Will they trench to accomodate 10 , 50, or 100 charge points at $30k, 150kx, or $300k or more?

The time to charge is a Bi%^h. 6 gas pumps can fill up a hundreds of cars in public a day. 6 charge points at 2 hours per can only charge 45 cars a day if non-stop from 6am to midnight.

Not to mention you get theoretical 20 miles per 2 hour charge, 20 x 45 cars for 900 total electric miles per day.

 

they will if the gov'ment subsidizes it like gaserline.

 

Hey cool, thank you for the offer!

I'm kinda surprised my post #71 didn't set you off Maybe now it will because perhaps you didn't see it yet.

 

Whether or not large-volume parking can adequately support public charging becomes an issue, it's not the same situation for smaller businesses... who are always looking for an advantage over the big guys.

Coffeeshops are a great example. Restaurants are another. Owners of small lots leasing store space seek out ways to attract business too.

Think about how some already offer parking discounts for patronage in areas with high competition. Working recharge appeal into the infrastructure of small businesses, which are seeking out new opportunities anyway, isn't too far of a stretch.

Future patronage could include taking the plug into account. In fact, it could even alter the paradigm of location. And what about park & ride usage?

Old school thinking just plain doesn't work anymore. New approaches will need to be tried. Some will catch on. Others will flounder. I find it very exciting to participate in the shift.
.

 

I just don't buy the idea that we need a large charging infrastructure to support phevs. We should know more when more numbers come in. If we need to publicly charge phvs every day that means to get to obama's 1m plug ins we need something on the order of 300K public chargers.

These are some stats so far, which say volts and leafs don't need nearly that many.
Data on Electric Car Driving Patterns from the EV Project | PluginCars.com
Tracked leafs charge 1.1 times per day volts 1.4 times and the bulk of these times are work or home.

Hey the coffee shop I go to rejected a free charger from the utility because it didn't want to give up 2 dedicated spots. I talked to the owner who said most patrons are fairly local so they can charge at home. I live close

how many spots if people really need them to plug in?

IMHO you are just plain wrong, but.... we are tracking the numbers. Let's check back in a year and see about it. I think we can put many more phevs on the road than we need a public charging structure for. These chargers will be oportunity charging that only a small percentage of drivers will use daily. They might charge publicly one day a week or less.

Here is where I think your confusion lies. You are thinking if there is a public structure, you will use it. And that is great. I agree . What I am saying is there doesn't need to be a public structure to get phevs on the road, and I doubt we will build it fast. This isn't a chicken or egg thing. The phevs need to be there wanting charging before the little local coffee shop decides to dedicate parking spaces and putting expensive chargers in. They may put little 110 outlets out there, but that is kind of a PITA to roll out your charger for 45 minutes of electricity.

 

This is it. A lot of businesses are leasing. They need their landlords to want to install charging points.

However, you have fundamental problems:
- chargers serve a limited number of customers (as drum notes)
- it only works if there's differentiation

In the short term you're laying out a lot of money to attract the few PEV owners in your market sector. Additionally, you're either losing a parking spot to other ICEVs or you have a potential to cause resentment. On top of that, the most convenient spots for laying the wire are close to the building and may colnflict with disabled access, and good disabled access is a higher business priority for many business.

In the medium term you'd need to add more charging spots to reduce competition for the charger. It increases cost up front but lowers overall cost if you can meet future demand.

In the long term, with a lot of PEVs and a lot of businesses having chargers you lose differentiation.

I don't see chargers as being particularly effective as a differentiator other than in two limited ways:
- as a promotional device
- when installed for employees with additional provision for the public, lowering cost of provision to the public.

 

Perhaps there's some PiP envy on my part. thing I don't like the most is the MPG loss on short trips. 1 milers, 3 milers, ugh, the whittle down the CONS gage. But, I bought the car to drive it, so that's what I shall do....

Some short trips can be done on bicycle.

 

Do the plugs lock into the vehicle?

Say a business does put in a charger, but finds that the people using it aren't patronizing their store. Could they have the plug in safely towed?