malorn and desync on why America needs Assault Rifles

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Feb 22 2007, 01:26 PM) [snapback]394642[/snapback]</div>

Oh please! This is a clear example of implying causation when none exists. Assuming that the guns and violent crime are related, I could argue this either way:

1. Taking guns off the street encourages more violent crime because only the criminals have guns (your position, I think).

OR

2. Those cities with more violent crime are more likely to ban guns in an effort to eliminate this violent crime.

In order to convince me that either #1 or #2 are valid, you'd have to show me evidence that the crime rate changed one way or another AFTER the gun legislation, and ALSO convince me that you'd controlled for all the other variables.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Feb 22 2007, 06:11 PM) [snapback]394843[/snapback]</div>

http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Barack...Gun_Control.htm

http://www.snubnose.info/wordpress/news/ba...on-gun-control/

http://www.sportsmenforobama.org/index.php...4&Itemid=27


More for you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Betelgeuse @ Feb 22 2007, 02:36 PM) [snapback]394855[/snapback]</div>

I gotta go do an appraisal right now but I believe I can find those stats for you. But boy with that kind of attitude you must realllly HATE AMERICA!

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Feb 22 2007, 01:39 PM) [snapback]394663[/snapback]</div>

Let’s start with a basic fact: The United States has more firearm related fatalities than the rest of the developed world combined.

Switzerland:

Every pro-gun advocate always likes to use Switzerland as the example of why we should all have guns. But:

The Swiss do not issue every adult male an assault rifle when they turn 18 to be kept indefinitely
The Swiss do not have a loaded assault rifle in every home!
Switzerland's Military Reservists are a text book example of a "Well regulated militia" as described in the Bill of Rights.

For some details please see the attached excerpts from Wikipedia:

[The armed forces consist of a small nucleus of about 3,600 professional staff, half of whom are either instructors or staff officers, with the rest being conscripts or volunteers. All able-bodied Swiss males aged between 18 and 30 (in some cases longer) must serve, and although entry to recruit school may be delayed for high school and equivalent education, it is no longer possible to delay it for university studies. About one third of them are excluded for various reasons, and these either serve in Civil Protection or Civil Service.] .....

[For women, military service is voluntary, but they now can serve in all the armed forces and can join all units, including combat units. About 2,000 women already serve in the army but, until the "Army XXI" reform, were not allowed to use weapons for purposes other than self-defense. Since the reform, women can take on any position within the armed forces.]........

[Conscription occurs at the age of 18 years. At the age of 20, about half the service is done during an initial training period of 21 or 18 weeks, depending on the service branch, with the exception of the Grenadiers, an elite infantry unit with a 25-week boot camp. Initial training (following regular boot camp) for members of the AAD, Switzerland's new SAS-type Special Forces unit, which is an all-volunteer professional unit with a rigorous selection process, is 18 months. Thereafter, men remain in the military until the age of 30 (or longer, if the military service is not yet completed), performing three weeks of training every year. However, the service period of non-commissioned officers and officers is significantly longer. Due to a new military reform enacted in 2005, it is no longer possible to postpone the initial training to finish university, although it is possible to postpone in order to finish high school or equivalent internships (for example for an aspiring carpenter who might only finish training at 19 or 20).] ...............

[ Ready ammunition of the Swiss Army. Every soldier equipped with the Sig 550 assault rifle is issued 50 rounds of ammunition in a sealed box, to be opened only upon alert. The ammunition is then loaded into the rifle magazine for use by the militiaman should any needs arise while he is en route to join his unit. Any other use than this or even unsealing is strictly forbidden. ] .........

[Every year, those still in Reserve have to present themselves with their rifles at a shooting stand, and fire a certain number of rounds, which are issued.]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Betelgeuse @ Feb 22 2007, 06:36 PM) [snapback]394855[/snapback]</div>

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0601.htm

Crime rose significantly after the gun ban went into effect. In the five years before Washington's ban in 1976, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 per 100,000. In the five years after it went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. During this same time, robberies fell from 1,514 to 1,003 per 100,000 and then rose by over 63 percent, up to 1,635. The five-year trends are not some aberration. In fact, while murder rates have varied over time, during the almost 30 years since the ban, the murder rate has only once fallen below what it was in 1976.

When the ban passed, criminals had less to worry about from armed citizens and burglaries soared by 56 percent in the five years. Disassembled, unloaded, and locked long guns are essentially useless for self-defense. With police response times in the District averaging 8 minutes and 25 seconds, one doesn't always have the luxury of waiting for police to respond.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200409290839.asp


--Betelguise.. there is a mass of information regarding the rise in violent crime rates in cities that implement firearms bans. Yet, very little, if none at all, with evidence stating that the opposite effect occured.

Do some research for yourself as I'm exhausted from fending off liberals with no clue about gun ownership, Constitutional rights, and self responsibility. I'm sure you'll find information backing the POVs of us true Patriots. The best teacher is yourself, so have at it buddy. B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Feb 22 2007, 07:10 PM) [snapback]394871[/snapback]</div>

I don't know what you're talking about but if you have something to tell me you should say it. Mystery Squid?

JackDodge?

Same misspelled words and all?

You been drinking too much Kool-Aid?

.... a quick search of "Mystery Squid" yielded several posts from some dude named "Mystery Squid".. I can only assume you are accusing me of being this person?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that isn't me. I wasn't born in 45 and I sure as hell haven't posted 4K+ times here.

Silly liberal.. Cognitive thinking is for people with brains.

Shouldn't you be trying to trample someones Constitutional rights, or harassing non-Christians like you did in that other thread?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Feb 22 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]394685[/snapback]</div>

You protect morons? Interesting job choice there squid. So the smarter guys protect the nonmorons and you protect the morons. Wow. Got the short straw did you?

by the way, I'm not a liberal. Not everyone that doesn't fit your idea of how we should be is a liberal

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Feb 22 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]394915[/snapback]</div>

I used to do my small but significant part in "Protecting and Serving". I wasn't an Officer, but I dealt with people everyday that needed our help, and gee.. They probably called us because we have the guns.

I'm not "Squid".. thanks for playing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Feb 22 2007, 07:45 PM) [snapback]394920[/snapback]</div>

Whatever you say, squid.

 

Off/T~
Fundies? Anyone familiar with a store called Spencers???

They used to sell a product called fundies "underware thats fun to wear because its built for two".. Sorry every time I see you all use the word it just makes me laugh.. :lol: :lol:

On/T~
I have a SKS B)

I also have a stainless mossberg, thats my weapon of choice... Of course next to the sig-9mm..
I wish they would let me carry the S/W 357 mag revolver as a duty weapon, I carried one as a aux in the 90's

I read some where that some NYPD officers still carry 38's as they were grandfathered in and could carry until they retired..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Feb 22 2007, 09:09 PM) [snapback]394936[/snapback]</div>

I have seen your posts and you're nothing but a drama queen.

I'm not squid.

My faith has nothing to do with the love for my country. When people like you attempt to trample on the Constitution, it disturbs me as you are completely disregarding and disrespecting all that our brave Countrymen have died for. It is insulting, especially to anyone whom has served for this country.

ps - It isn't "My views" on gun control, it is our founding fathers view on gun control. Get over it.

JimN.. advocating genocide isn't really a good thing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Feb 22 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]394863[/snapback]</div>

Once again I'll repeat "The United States has more firearm related homicides than the rest of the developed world combined". Anyone want to tell me why? We should be safer than anyone in the world since we also have the highest gun ownership rate.

From the World Health Organization: World Report on Violence and Health (Numbers from 1999)

Country------------Homicides --- Per/100K People--------Firearm Homicides-------Per/100K People
Australia--------------94----------------1.0------------------------56-------------------------0.3
Austria----------------68----------------0.8------------------------17-------------------------0.0
Belgium--------------169---------------1.6-------------------------59------------------------0.6
Canada--------------431---------------1.4------------------------159-------------------------0.5
Denmark-------------59----------------1.1------------------------15--------------------------0.0
Finland----------------125--------------2.2------------------------22--------------------------0.4
France-----------------436-------------0.7-------------------------170------------------------0.3
Germany--------------720-------------0.9-------------------------155------------------------0.2
Ireland-----------------30--------------0.8-------------------------7---------------------------0.0
Italy------------------720--------------1.1-------------------------463------------------------0.8
Japan-----------------719--------------0.6-------------------------22-------------------------0.0
Netherlands----------203--------------1.3-------------------------75-------------------------0.5
Norway---------------41---------------0.9-------------------------10--------------------------0.0
Portugal--------------118--------------1.1-------------------------61-------------------------0.6
Korea----------------987---------------2.0------------------------19--------------------------0.0
Spain-----------------355--------------0.8------------------------85--------------------------0.2
Switzerland----------77----------------1.1------------------------0---------------------------0.0
UK--------------------440---------------0.8-----------------------45--------------------------0.1
--------------------------------Average: 1.126--------------------------------------Average: 0.237

United States------17,893-------------6.9-----------------------11,802---------------------4.4

So American are 613% more likely to die by homicide than the rest of the developed world. 6 times MORE likely!
Americans are 1856% for likely to die by a firearm inflicted homicide than the rest of the developed world. That is 18.5 times MORE likely!

BTW I own a gun, but I don't think it makes be any safer. I don't fear a violent intruder killing me in the middle of the night. In fact owning a gun makes me statistically more likely to die from a gunshot than someone that doesn't own a gun. That gun is also more likely to kill a member of my own family than an intruder. Sorry just the cold hard facts.

So I'll ask my question again: How does having the highest firearm ownership percentage in the developed world make Americans safer?

 

A couple of reasons the USA has high rates is:

Reason #1:
Liberals that don't teach their children how to handle a firearm.

Reason #2:
Those statistics include Law Enforcement related casualties.

The reason we're safer, is because we're armed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Feb 23 2007, 12:18 AM) [snapback]395017[/snapback]</div>

I'm sorry, I need to stop confusing liberals with anti-gun nuts. I know not all liberals are anti-gun.

I guarandamntee most firearms _accidents_ are due to the person not being properly trained tho.

 

Wow, yet another thread with the same people throwing around labels such as liberals and morons. Hmm, these guys think they are so much smarter than the rest of us. :lol: I always wonder about the actual intelligence levels of those who cannot identify the difference between a diametrically opposed worldview and a lack of intelligence in an opponent. Guess its just more gratifying to assume that anyone that doesn't see things your way is simply dumber than you. *shrug*

The teaching of proper gun handling and ethics does no stop a child or adult from misusing a firearm when in a deeply emotional state. The lack of access to a firearm does.


I am a gun owner (completely disasembled with no ammo in the house due to younger sisters) and fomer hunter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Feb 22 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]394863[/snapback]</div>

I guess it depends where your statistics come from...
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/dccrime.htm
This site contradicts your statements. In the 5 years before 1976, the numbers per 100K in the years 1971 through 1975, inclusive, were, respectively, 37.1, 32.8, 35.9, 38.3 & 32.8. In 1976, the year of the ban (your words), it dropped to 26.8! For 1977 through 1980 inclusive, it remained UNDER the best year of the 5 year period you referenced. Sorry 'bout that.

But really, to pin a change in one statistic (crime, murder, etc.) to one single event (firearms ban) assumes that all other variables (and they are legion) remained constant. So, even if your statistics didn't disprove what you were trying to claim, basing your conclusion on one event is unsound. Which is why I'm not stating that the ban WAS the single reason the murders decreased over the 5 years following the ban - that would be irresponsible of me, based on the amount of possible variables that could effect it.