Looks like some more Volt battery fires.

Google: car fire in garage.

 

I was wondering who would be the first idiot to come up with something like this. Thanks for not disappointing me. I'm not telling anyone that if they choose to buy a plug-in they're crazy. I said I personally would never buy one and I gave the reason. It was that plain and simple. You live your life, and I'll live mine. I have a phone,ipad, laptop, and rechargeable toothbrush in my home. When the batteries and cord become as large as the ones on an EV then I will remove them.


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The point is any battery charger can start a fire. Yes, an EV battery is larger and can make bigger fire, but the phones and laptops a likely have enough fuel around them to make the end result no different. Plus, the phones and laptops are likely closer to you, maybe even your bedroom, than the car. It can take just seconds for a fire to engulf a room.

If we all make judgements based a likely incident of an occurance, we'd never get into a car or even leave the house.

 

What part of "I personally" do you not understand?


iPad ?

 

So to be clear the reason you fear a plugin/ev is the battery charger? Or is it the plug into the car? Is it the plug into the wall? The battery in the car? What is it that makes you so frightened.

 

....unattended ops of any kind requires some thought re: saftey, even washing machine etc. Basically some kind of instrumentation and alarm would be the engineering approach. How fancy such a system needs to be is the question.

 

I don't think I can say it any CLEARER than I have already. During the course of the investigation of a large warehouse fire it was determined that there have been many fires caused by battery chargers. The problem was not limited to one manufacturer. Since I lost 600,000 dollars worth of steel in that warehouse it obviously had an impact on me.

Now if I had a charger that could charge a car in 1 hour while I was able to keep my eye on it then I MIGHT consider it, but I would never ever charge a car in an enclosed environment regardless of how much time it took.


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That is fine it actually wasn't clear from the original post that you are afraid of battery chargers. Is it the inverter or some other part of the charger that frightens you?

You see some people might consider the plug on either end of the charger part of the charger which is why I asked you whether it was the plug going into the car, or the wall etc...

 

Do you still have the specifics?

 

Ugh. I friggin give up. Please forget I ever posted.


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I don't think it is a logical fear, judging from the lack of willingness to discuss specifics. But an emotional fear (which is just as real as on based on rational reasons).

You will see people who have a bad experience avoid the situation for a time, weather or not there is a rational reason to.

On an objective side, I would look at what type of batteries were involved in the fire(s). Then the type of electrical hookup (gauge of charging cable, chargers, etc) and the speed of charging.
Did the batteries burst into flame or did the outlet/wiring start the fire?

Have no doubt, if these were chargers of the quality and safety specs of car chargers, and there had been no safety hazards in the wiring (i.e. gauge of the cable as well as plugs and charger were all free of defects and built to handle the charge and rate of charge), I would be fearful as well.

 

Thank you for the psychological evaluation, and at no charge which is very thoughtful considering your medical background.

When the fire occurred I had insurance. This was about a 30 million dollar claim in total. Since I had insurance I didn't have to worry about the details. The people that had no insurance, and the insurance company were the ones that had to pursue restitution from whomever or whatever was the cause of the fire . They sued the golf cart manufacturer, the battery manufacturer, the owner of the building, and the charger manufacturer.

What basically came out of the lawsuit was the following:
1. charging batteries unintended in an enclosed environment where there are other flammables carries a portion of the risk. The owner of the building was sued and he lost. He didn't have gasoline hanging around electrical plugs, but there was gasoline, paint, turpentine, and other chemicals within 100 feet.
2. The golf cart company was held harmless.
3. The battery company took a portion of the blame and was forced to pay.
4. The maker of the charger, which was supplied by the golf cart company had to pay.

Now all of that being said, what are people doing now? They are getting their electric company to put special plugs in their garage. Are there any flammables in most garages? Yes, normally there are. I wouldn't do it based on my experiences.

You and others obviously feel that if everything is within spec then you should be ok. Fine, go ahead and think that way. It doesn't bother me in the least. Everything was in spec when this fire occurred, yet there was fault. All I can tell you is almost everything is within spec, and then something happens that causes a change in that spec. In most cases it is engineering by fire (pun intended).

EV's are an evolving technology. The percentage of EV's on the road is miniscule. Believe it or not everything about these vehicles just might not be worked out so I will wait. I am not looking down on anyone that chooses to buy an EV. More power to you,

You guys make it sound like I'm a frightened old fool. That's fine with me, but I'm not ignorant. Sleep well.

 

Um if everything was done according to code and specs then they would not have had to pay in the lawsuit Unless it was justice gone awry.

I asked specifically about cords b/c a lot of fires occur when a plug is partially in and arcing. If the internals of the charger lit on fire then someone REALLY screwed up and they would obviously be liable. The plug issue actually is a problem that I worry hasn't been considered. The UL requirement for chargers says teh EVSE has to be a certain distance from the plug. This means it might be hanging from an outlet. This is a disaster waiting to happen. Of course on a GFCI, which is code in most of the US for garages now I believe, this should not be much of a problem.

 

Sorry but that is simply not true. It would be nice if it were. Standards change all of the time. That doesn't mean everyone has to recall everything that was made prior to the disaster.

Almost every product that has ever been invented has changed because of lawsuits whether warranted or not.

There are literally thousands of examples. The Pinto met all safety specs at the time but yet they got sued and lost when their cars started on fire in rear end collisions.

Our space program had back up systems for back up systems and yet we lost three astronauts in a fire. I bet everything was within spec at the time, but lawsuits were still won. The same thing happened when we lost the challenger shuttle. All good technology to specifications, but those specifications had to change, and there were lawsuits that were won.

Asbestos was approved and legal in every state. It met all current safety standards at the time of manufacture. The companies that made asbestos all were sued even though there was no evidence at the time that it was harmful. Most of the companies had to file for bankruptcy.


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Like I said code now requires GFCI it did not always.

The reason things like that happen is that there are oversights, or knowing wrong doing.

That is what happens when a company knows they have an unsafe product and keep producing it anyway. Each example from the private sector you gave was companies that knew they had an unsafe product and kept producing it.

The space program is the exact opposite. They screwed up and immediately changed the design.

 

And like I said, there is an excellent chance that some lawsuit caused GFCI to become the standard, just as the next battery fire caused by whatever will create another new code. All I have been trying to say for the last two days is that corporations don't know all the possibilities when they manufacture items and bring them to market. It takes lawsuits to get things changed.

And as you even said there are times corporations continue to make things they know aren't safe. Thanks for making my point. Funny how these unsafe items still made it to the market in mass quantities. How well were you informed and protected from these unsafe products? Are there any unsafe parts in current electric cars? Certain codes, laws, or standards are not always at their maximum safety level. In fact it is safe to say they are at their absolute minimum safety level. The codes or standards will never change until enough people are injured, and then, and only then will legislators change them.

Sorry, but I'm not going to engage in a new technology that doesn't have enough cars in the marketplace to determine its safety. In a few years we will be at the cusp of truly finding out just how safe it is to charge your car for hours unattended in an enclosed environment after it has gone through some normal wear.

 

All products are to some degree unsafe, as is everything in life. Water is necessary for life, but it can drown or choke. Oxygen is necessary, but it is toxic, corrosive, and causes fires.

Product safety is a trade-off. If every product were made safe to the Nth degree, none of us could afford to own anything. The real problem becomes one of finding balance between cost and safety. Liability lawsuits happen when we disagree about the balance. It isn't a cut and dry process. The amount of risk allowed for a test pilot or astronaut is much higher than that allowed for a school child on a school bus.

Unexpected risk also occurs with the interaction of systems. A perfectly safe battery charger can become a death trap when used in a flammable environment. The charger can meet all appropriate standards and still be unsafe, as the standards may not have anticipated operation in a flammable environment.

As a species, we do a pretty good job anticipating potential problems and designing around them, but we aren't perfect, and we don't always agree on priorities. When we don't, tragedy and legal action force us to reconsider.

Tom

 

I think you are obviously misinterpreting if you say

What does minimum or maximum safety mean? It is just an opinion. You need to start talking about statistical life years and so forth if you want to argue about how safe things are. They are safe enough that we are willing to spend $1 million to save a life, or more usually.

 

also, some things related to safety are simply industry lobbying for codes that will benefit them like any other industry. here in mass, fire sprinkler manufacturers have pushed for years to require all new homes to be sprinkled. unsuccessfully, i believe. apparently, they haven't greased enough palms.

 

I didn't think it was that tough, but here goes. Minimum safety means just enough to keep it within certain codes or standards. For example for years aluminum electrical wires met the building codes. People changed from copper to aluminum because aluminum was significantly cheaper. The standard had to be changed because of heat build-up causing fires in the walls. Anyone who used aluminum prior to the fires chose to meet the MINIMUM safety standard.

The same might be said for certain chargers depending on the flow of electricity. The standard or code for one might be to use 14 gauge wire. A manufacturer may decide that 10 gauge would be a lot safer, but to remain competitive in price he chooses to use wire that meets the standard. He is using the minimum standard. Later it is found that 14 gauge in warm climates has caused numerous fires. The code is changed to 10 gauge and a new minimum safety standard is formed. Companies have no incentive to make products above the minimum safety requirement because it is difficult to remain competitive.


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