Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers...

Tom,
Thanks... just trying to keep up with you :mrgreen:
I agree about raising the xover freq. I'm guessing that the JBL drivers just won't play cleanly up to 3.5K so they opted for a lower cutoff, which in turn yielded a thin sound in the front seats, hence the addition of the center speaker for freq band support from 2.5K to 5K. My totally non-scientific by-ear tests (sitting in the back seat, faded to full rear) tend to confirm this.

I'm sure EQ would make a difference, and I suppose time alignment could really improve the sound from the driver's seat, but I wonder what the other seats might be like. I guess that's the nice thing about head-units with built-in time alignment, you can flip between presets quickly/easily. As always, it's bang ÷ buck and I think you're getting pretty close to the point of diminishing returns already.

I had to drive for about 3 hours yesterday, so I had an unusually large number of discs with me, and I noticed that with some of them I was getting a pretty decent center image, while others were L/R. It seemed to vary with mix and frequency content. I'll see what it's like when I change the speakers (fingers crossed).

NuShrike,
I don't really get what you're asking here. I know what pink and white noise are, and there is an easier way to describe them: pink noise is just filtered white noise. OK, maybe that's a little too flip (even though it's true). How about white noise has equal energy per cycle and pink noise has equal energy per octave or fraction thereof. Anyway, I know dipping can be heard. What I was trying to say is that if a car system dips in the area of 2.5K it isn't necessarily that bad a thing, or IOW there are worse areas for a dip.

Yeah, I wouldn't say identical, but similar - using different mics and analyzers introduces too many variables for a serious comparison, but just for fun I put Tom's results on your chart, centered at 500Hz. Unless I'm reading your chart wrong, I see the 'par' points being a little different - not significantly though.

It's a good strategy. It looks like it's working. I think it's cool that you've approached the JBL problem in such a creative way.

 

I had a few minutes to kill, so I made a ±4db smoothing and best-fit of Tom's RTA result superimposed on NuShrike's. Again, not suitable for any real comparison - just some fun with photoshop.

I forgot to mention this before - Tom, you said the SPL meter was bouncing around a little? On a diet of pink noise, and set to 4db steps, it should have been fairly constant if the volume was loud enough to drown-out all background noise.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock in my RTA from the IASCA meet. it was indeed bouncing around, and the volume wasn't turned very high... I would estimate the volume they set for the test was about 35, although I forgot to record the actual volume so that's just a guess. I remember thinking the volume was too low for the amount of background noise there, but I'd never used their equipment so I didn't question it.

Yesterday I was installing the Focal 165K2P speakers in the rear... turned out one of the crossovers was dead so I just installed the woofers and used the amp low pass circuit. Don't really need the tweeters in the back anyway. But I did fit one Focal TN52 tweeter into the rear factory tweeter location by cutting away some plastic and using Mortite to hold it in place. And the crossover fit on the inside of the inside sheet metal, just to the rear of the the door handle. Today I'll work on B-quiet for the rear doors.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Now that I've replacee the four door speakers with the Infinity component speakers I was wondering if there would be any benefit to looking for a better center speaker and what would I look for...a large tweeter? I took a look at it yesterday and good thing I did. One of the screws was only half way installed so the speaker was very loose and rattling. One rattle/sqeak/creak down and maybe 50 to go!

The sound very very directional with the center speaker disconnected and I decided I liked it better with it connected.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

FredWB, if I understand correctly, you are still using the factory JBL amp to power your Infinity speakers, right?

And you are satified with the sound quality? Can you play real load also without it sounding distored?

I'm following this thead with great thrill as I've just ordered a new Prius and the only thing I disliked with in at the testdrive was the lousy sound quality of the JBL system.

In my current car (a Peugeot 406 combi) I replaced the factory speakers with Magnat Extrema 5,25" speakers. It was a great lift, but I still can't play especially load without it sounding bad. I suppose it's the factory head unit not powerful enough to drive the speakers.

That's why I'm a little curious if it will be enough to just replace the speakers in the Prius, or if I should get a new amp while I'm at it.

(Yes, I've read all about how the amp does build-in cross-over filtering for the front channels, so it might not be suitable to drive replaced speakers on these channels... I'm just curious about how satisfied Fred is despite this fact)

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Well I'm not Fred, but I replaced the speakers with the Infinity 6010CS as well, so here's what I think.

If I wanted to spend the money, AND I didn't care about losing some bluetooth functionality and the steering wheel controls, I would certainly want to replace the amp. If I did that, I would replace the head unit as well, to keep volume/fade/balance controls.

However, those are simply too many things that when taken together made me decide that replacing the amp simply isn't worth it (for me). Replacing the speakers made a HUGE difference in sound quality. I'm not saying I'm 100% satisfied.... I'm about 85% satisfied, whereas before I was 60% satisfied.

Also, the first thing I did to the system when I got it was install a sub (before I did this I was only about 40% satisfied with the JBL system). I think the infinity woofers drop off at the lower frequencies more than the stock speakers did; I've had to turn up the gain and the low-pass filter on the amp for my sub. Of course, this could just be a result of the way I physically installed the woofers, when compared to the way the stock speakers were installed.

Anyone else notice their aftermarket woofers dropping off at a higher frequency than the stock woofers? Anyone do any frequency response measurements with aftermarket speakers to compare them to the stock speakers?

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(krooster1234\";p=\"115665)</div>

I think I pretty much agree with what you said. I did find a way to retain the stock plastic mounts with my Infinity speakers so my results might be a bit different than yours. I think the result is much better than the stock JBL's and my wife thought they were much improved as well immediately after hearing it. Are they perfect? Far from it. I probably could use a sub-woofer too. But there's plenty of bass, almost too much it seems with some music. The new speakers added more depth and separtion that was just missing in the JBL's. The JBL's sounded flat and tinny to me like a small mono boom box. For the $300 cost (tax and shipping included) this was a super deal and I'm satisfied with somewhat painless upgrade.

 

I installed my four aftermarket speakers in the black plastic factory JBL speaker mounts, and with B-quiet sealing up the cracks between the door sheet metal and the JBL mounts, it is a very solid install. I noticed somewhat more bass after installing the aftermarket speakers, even without adding any EQ. This could be because I was using the rear channel JBL amp output signal to drive the fronts, which has more bass EQ'd in.

I think it's quite feasible to keep the JBL amp and upgrade the speakers for those who don't need really loud levels. I'd suggest driving the front aftermarket speakers off the rear channel amp outputs. For the rears, there would be two ways to go:

1. Wire the front and back speakers together to the same rear L or R output in series. Use L-Pads (variable resistors) across the rear speakers to turn them down to a lower volume than the front. In a post on another forum the Harmon (JBL) rep said that the amp in our car supports loads of 2 Ohms on up, so this would be fine. It's possible you could parallel the speakers and get more power, but you might create a load with too low impedance for the amp to handle.

2. Wire the front to the rear JBL outputs, and wire the rear to the front JBL outputs. This will require running an extra wire to the rear doors for the tweeter channel. You would use the aftermarket crossover on the front, and use the JBL amp crossover for the rear. You would want to find an aftermarket speaker set for the rear that can be crossed over at the 2.4k or so JBL point. Or just use the JBL drivers from the front and move them to the rear... probably most cost effective since the rear channel isn't that important.

#1 might be simpler since you don't have to run a wire to the rear doors, and might give better sound quality in the rears, but #2 would give more volume without amp distortion.

The easiest and most bang for the buck improvement would just be to disconnect the rear speakers and run aftermarket front drivers from the rear JBL amp output.

Last night I got my system to a pretty decently tuned in point. I am running my aftermarket amp off the rear JBL outputs, and the fronts speakers get the full range signal. The rears get a signal that has been low passed approx 55 Hz at 12 db/octave, and with the low bass EQ'd up with the Punch control on my Rockford amp. Basically the rears fill in the low bass that the JBL amp EQs out of it's output signal.

Having that low bass versus not having it is somewhat subtle, and many folks might not think it's worth all the hassle.

I've got some pretty solid 1/3 octave psuedo RTA results, which I will post soon. I get decently flat bass down to about 40 Hz (no sub), although if I turn the volume up real high I hear some buzzing that I haven't tracked down yet. There are a few response peaks and valleys above the bass region that I'm interested in checking out.

Now that I've got the system into a relatively well balanced state, I tried listening to a portable flat response CD player driving the amp directly (without my bass boost to the rears). I listened enough to be able to confidently say I prefer the JBL amp output, with it's funky EQ.

The work I did to extend bass response down low is clearly something that wouldn't have worked well with the factory speakers. For good results it requires a high quality driver with good power handling like the Focal 165K2P that I'm using.

I'm still lusting after the Alpine PXA-H701 EQ, but right now I think my system is in a very good state without any upper EQ.

But one slightly annoying thing with having my amp only send low frequencies to the rear speakers is that means if I have passengers in the back, I have to go mess with the amp controls in the cargo compartment in order to give them full range sound. I've got some ideas for how to sum in the sum of the front JBL outputs to allow me to fade the rear full range up from the head unit. Or I could just get the Alpine PXA-H701 unit and use a different EQ preset to do that!

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Here's the response measurements I did of my system. I see peaks and valleys at about the same places as the JBL EQ, but it's smoother. Most of the measurements were made with the microphone in the empty driver's seat, and the labels indicate the microphone position with respect to where my facial featues would be when I was in the driver's seat. The exception is the "2 inches Rt of Rt Ear w/body" measurement which was made while I was in the driver's seat. Note that I did this measurement on the Fluke 189 meter which has 100Khz bandwidth, so the treble measurement roll off from my JBL amp measurements is not an issue here.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/prius...cs/FocalRTA.gif

Overall it was surprising how much bass boost the car has... about 11 db higher at 80Hz than 160Hz. I suppose this probably comes from having the woofers located near the corners of the space. At volume 60 not much is from the JBL EQ. It's not necessarily a bad thing... a good sounding frequency response will always have more bass, especially when driving where it's needed to overcome road noise.

After I did the measurements I decided to tame the bass peak at 40Hz, and the green line is after I adjusted the Rockford punch control to bring that down a bit... that's what I'm listening to now.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Slightly OT, but one thing to consider is the amount of work to put into the sound system should be proportional to the amount of time spent in the car.

I spend 3 hours each day.

That's some cool new graphs Tom! Can you maybe break it out into two charts, one with all the lines, and one with the average, and then the tamed?

I don't see as much of the 500Hz dip as your previous RTA (which seems to match that right ear graph most as well as my results).

Ya, that JBL pumps in a huge amount of bass at 70Hz; can't understand why since the stock speakers don't need that much boost even with their poorer low response.

I've been trying 5dB of bass above 160Hz and that has mostly seemed okay even with road noise. I'm trying 3dB now since I don't want my U2 overpumped.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Hello from France 8)
I was not satisfied of the JBL amp ,a bit tiring, so I did this way :
Install a Blaupunkt ODA amp in the rear
Replace the front tweeters by Infinity reference 1001, they come with their filter, feed them in parallel with the front woofer.
Use the signal of the rear loudspeakers thru a adjustable level adapter to the amp (aux1).
Feed the 4 doors using the original cables.
Use the sub signal of the amp to feed another small amp for my custom subwoofer.
The result is excellent for my taste: very clean medium, lot of dynamic, more natural.
By the way I got another audio entry (aux2).
Routing the bundle of cables is not funny, but I am quite happy from the result.
As a side result Miss Gps & Mr telephon are using a wider band and I like it. 8)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tmorrowus @ Aug 11 2005, 06:06 PM) [snapback]115803[/snapback]</div>

Has anyone done either of these? I just ordered 2 sets of Infinity 6010cs' and will be installing them in my JBL system. Wanted to find out what people felt was the best way to hook them up (I know, everyone has an opinion but I like to hear them.....). The way I read this thread there are a few options for hooking all this up but I'd like to hear from people that actually replaced the front and rear JBL speakers without an extra amp and what they felt worked best for them....

Thanks.

Ken

 

*bump* - anyone still watching this thread

 

I started with just the upgraded speakers but felt the need to go beyond... though in actual fact I think the tweeters alone gave the biggest bang for the buck upgrade.

Here is what I ended up doing, including how the sound improved with each upgrade: http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=2...mp;#entry354563

 

OK.

I can't stand the JBL system, it's horrible. I asked my dealer if they could recommend a stereo shop and they only shrugged and expressed surprise that I wasn't completely thrilled with the JBL setup. It's premium, you know!

I just want some clarity. I'm not an audiophile, I can't really hear the difference between pretty good speakers and really good speakers, so spending assloads of money isn't in my plan. I am hoping that I can get clearer sound by slapping in 2 sets of Infinity 6010cs (front and rear) speakers and dynamatting at least the front doors. I had a set of Reference speakers in my last car and was very happy with them so I'm hoping for a repeat.

I can get the speakers on sale at Crutchfield now for $99.99 a pair and get dynamat kits cheap on ebay so it should be an affordable setup.

You all are far more stereo-savvy than I am. Anyone have any suggestions or reasons I shouldn't go with the 6010s?

Thanks!

 

You will get a reasonable improvement with those speakers, but don't expect miracles - the sound stage going into the speakers is paltry at best. Just try them, mess about with the tone controls and decide from there...

Good luck.

Cox

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(smArty @ Aug 29 2007, 01:57 PM) [snapback]503887[/snapback]</div>

 

Thanks. I'm not looking for an audio showcase or heart-thumping bass, but I'd like to be able to identify, say, a few different instruments, or listen to an NPR show at regular volume rather than turning the volume up in a vain attempt to try to better understand what's being said. Decomissioning the center speaker helps, and I hope a 'reasonable improvement' will get me to good enough.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cox @ Aug 29 2007, 12:51 PM) [snapback]503917[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(smArty @ Aug 29 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]503968[/snapback]</div>

This should help - the tweeters alone will make a lot of difference in tonal quality. I suspect that even with the larger speakers you'll still find the bass pretty weak. You may want to consider a small powered sub if you find that to be true. Not, as you say, to get the heart-thumping bass, but just to round out the low end. I'm using a Kenwood KSC-SW1 installed in the storage tray under the cargo area. I picked it mostly because I already had it and it is easy to install. It does the job, but pretty much anything in this line will probably help.

 

As mentioned, just replacing the front tweeters makes a huge difference. However, a lot of people do not like the Infinity speakers, especially the tweeters. "too brassy" or something. There are other brands that are favored over Infinity.

As far as sound deadening, the most reasonably priced high quality material is either "Raam maat" or "Second Skin". Pure butyl material, reasonably priced. The Raam web site has some good descriptions on how to do a thorough job on the doors.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Winston @ Aug 31 2007, 10:09 AM) [snapback]504982[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the thoughts on just replacing the tweeters. Is this a job that someone who's never installed a speaker in her life (but is generally competent at installing other stuff) should be able to do without dire consequences?

I mean "just replacing the front tweeters" sounds so easy!