Lexus GS 450Hybrid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LewLasher\";p=\"75517)</div>

Yes, of course: it's a free country. Freedom means that not everything that is good is mandated and that not everything that is foolish is forbidden.

In my opinion, for Toyota to apply its hybrid technology to produce a 350-horsepower passenger sedan is foolish.[/b][/quote]

That may be your opinion. I for one, am glad that there is a choice. I don't want to be forced to drive the exact same identical pod as everyone else. It's called individualism. I'm a staunch supporter of it. As for the GS, no I will not own one. I think 50 large is too much to pay for a depreciating assett. It's too bad that you don't se the whole picture. A 350 hp luxury performance sedan capable of getting 35 plus to the gallon, while still pinning you in the seat under acceleration, and providng sports car handling. Sounds like a beautiful exectution to me.

 

What we really need in a "next generation" hybrid is an on the fly driving mode switch which alters the software program used to control the power plant.


Economy: Preserve fuel eficiency and battery uage.

Performance: Adjust torque and electric usage to produce the most G's.

You will still see a 20-30% fuel efficiency boost in Perforamce mode, but you could also see a 30-40% boost in economy mode - much like the Prius.

Maybe a pipe dream, but I have read similar sentiments here already, so it is not original. I just thought it worth mentioning here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LewLasher\";p=\"75479)</div>

If that's the way you want to conduct the discussion, I'd say that you need to look beyond your desire to drive an unnecessarily overpowered passenger car. And, more generally, you need to look beyond your own individual desires, and consider what's best for the community at large.

I have no problem with a hybrid truck. People do need trucks.

I have no problem with luxury cars, either.

But there is no need for a passenger car with 350 horsepower. It's just a waste of scarce resources.[/b][/quote]

Sorry for the upcoming rant. I realize this post probably belongs in "Fred's House of Pancakes".

Even 350hp is nowhere near the most powerful four-door sedan you can buy. The upcoming BMW M5 has a 500hp V-10, and the current Mercedes S65 has 604hp. I agree that no one needs that powerful of a car, but to ignore the fact that some Americans want powerful luxury sedans is to ignore reality.

The fact is, Americans are used to excessive consumption, (didn't Dick Cheney say it was our birthright to drive huge SUVs, or something to that effect - ok, here it is: "The American way of life is non-negotiable", said in response to the idea that America might need to curtail its oil consumption). Unfortunately, trying to convince Americans to downsize their consumption and lead a more austere lifestyle is never going to get any politician elected, and will never make any company profitable except for small, niche companies. Companies have to serve many stakeholders, not just the tree-huggers, and for Toyota to market only say, sensible, economical vehicles, with only a "sufficient'" amount of power and features is to not serve their shareholders, their employees, their customers, and their suppliers.

Unfortunately, the idea of consuming less is never going to be popular among Americans until some horribly disasterous economic and/or globally significant political event occurs. We're the fattest nation on the planet, with a huge percentage of obese people, and we consume 25% of the world's oil despite having just 4% of the population.

I'm not a doom and gloomer, but I do believe our current way of life is unsustainable. If you want some scary views of what our future might be like, check out these links:

http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary12.html
http://usa.mediamonitors.net/headlines/tem...t_state_in_iraq
http://www.newsociety.com/News23/sucking.html

Someone on Slashdot once listed America's core competencies as Entertainment, Sports, Consumption, and Litigation.

 

I feel this hybrid GS is a great step. It proves the full hybrid system to the public. It opens up the hybrid owning market by leaps and bounds.

They have published results of an echo car with the Prius. They designed a heavier SUV with the RX400h. A more practical version is the Highlander. They will now have a "sports car" that gets better gas mileage. The GS, with it's new styling and additional features, could be a big hit. Now, you get an option for eliminate shifting, which will eliminate bad shifting points, and get higher gas mileage too?

What a great place to put a premium for HSD.. a luxury vehicle. The only type of car where people pay more because they can.

I'm waiting till they test the HSD on a truck. We'll see how the system performs then.

I think we need to embrace the use of HSD in all vehicle.. large.. small.. slow.. fast.. cheap and luxurious.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mss\";p=\"75530)</div>

I was thinking about this earlier.. it just requires specific software. Since the engine is basically hooked up to a computer.. you can change what you want on it when you want.. timing.. and such. this is a possibility for toyota. However... the increase in still good in any mode.. but imagine a pure enviromental mode.. where it just conserves gas like crazy.. you own't try to accelerate fast or anything because you know what mode you are in... then... change modes when you want to go faster. i wonder what the potential of two modes is. As is.. the prius has to go fast.. so it can't be too enviromental friendly... hmm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(V8Cobrakid\";p=\"75576)</div>

To me, this calls into question the economic viability of the hybrid technology at this point (what the GM guy calls the "business case"). It suggests that it really does add "thousands of dollars" to the price of a car, so that the only sensible application is for the luxury market, where there is available a sizeable minority of suckers willing to pay a premium for bragging rights.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LewLasher\";p=\"75479)</div>

...
But there is no need for a passenger car with 350 horsepower. It's just a waste of scarce resources.
[/b][/quote] Like someone lighting up a C-note to light a cigar. Some people just do not consider scarcity of resources, though some might do so in the wrong way. The movie, "The Freshman", with Matthew Broderick and Marlon Brando comes to mind.

 

Lew, I don't know if they have pills for that self righteous problem there but it might be worth a look.

Let's see. Toyota is offering V8 Performance for 4 Cylinder frugality, which will improve the environment for everyone.

You are whining because they aren't making cars you want everyone to drive.

Well, unless you get the power to command the universe, their approach works, and yours doesn't.

Go Toyota

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus\";p=\"75677)</div>

That's the fallacy right there.

More Silverados, anyone?

 

Fallacy? What Fallacy? What on earth are you talking about Lew?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus\";p=\"75677)</div>

The self-righteous problem is on the part of Toyota, for claiming that they are using hybrid technology for conservation and environmentalism.

And, I predict, the buyers of the GS 450h, who will go around proclaiming what a favor they are doing to all of us by buying the product.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus\";p=\"75746)</div>

OK, I'll try to spell it out.

To make an analogy, it's like going on a shopping spree when the store has a sale (say, at Neiman-Marcus, even, assuming that they have sales) on the theory that the more you buy, the more you save. (Assuming we're talking about discretionary spending, not like stocking up at Costco on food staples.) If your goal is to reduce consumption, you do so by reducing consumption.

Despite the overly-sensitive defensive reactions here by the proponents of the GS 450h, I'm not saying that Toyota shouldn't be allowed to sell the product, or that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy it. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

But don't pretend that this is about reducing consumption of scare resources. Because that's not what it's about. It's a marketing ploy to get people to consume, I would say, overconsume, by portraying the consumption as savings. Get more, pay less, is the message. But the less is in comparison to what you would have hypothetically paid for the overconsumption. The main marketing thrust is going to be on the Get More part of the message, the bragging rights to more horsepower than the guy next door, and, as an extra plus, you get self-righteous bragging rights because you're driving an "environmental" guzzler.

Once Toyota puts the hybrid drive into its mass market products, the Camry and Corolla (which, I suspect, they'll eventually get around to after milking the wealthy liberal niche market in the meantime), I'll take them seriously that this is about the environment.

 

Who cares what "reason" the lexus buyers use to buy the car.

This does not change the fact that having this option, instead of a conventional V8 engine under that hood, will result in a reduction of fuel consumption. Let the Lexus be the test bed for the RWD version of HSD. The next logical step would be to move it up to the Tacoma and Tundra trucks. A hybrid truck will be the ONLY truck to replace my current diesel.

I still don't understand why it is that since you don't like it, everyone else should be barred from having the choice for themselves.

 

Well, again you are projecting your values onto other people Lew.

People in the market for a V8 luxury sedan don't really care about your philosophical opinion on the matter.

Even GM gets some things right on occasion, and when Lutz says that adding 2 MPG to every Truck would do far more for the environment than adding 10 MPG to every Civic, he's right.

Giving people the same value (performance and comfort) they want for less envirnonmental impact is not a "Marketing Ploy". It is a positive step toward a cleaner environment.

You say "Get More for Less". That's not the issue. The true issue is "Waste Less for the Same Benefit".

You clearly think that people shouldn't be able to buy more car performance than you think is appropriate.

You want to eliminate vehicles you don't like.

Toyota is making every vehicle cleaner.

It's clear which is the effective approach to real world improvement.

Go Toyota.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LewLasher\";p=\"75759)</div>

OK, I'll try to spell it out.

To make an analogy, it's like going on a shopping spree when the store has a sale (say, at Neiman-Marcus, even, assuming that they have sales) on the theory that the more you buy, the more you save. (Assuming we're talking about discretionary spending, not like stocking up at Costco on food staples.) If your goal is to reduce consumption, you do so by reducing consumption.

Despite the overly-sensitive defensive reactions here by the proponents of the GS 450h, I'm not saying that Toyota shouldn't be allowed to sell the product, or that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy it. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

But don't pretend that this is about reducing consumption of scare resources. Because that's not what it's about. It's a marketing ploy to get people to consume, I would say, overconsume, by portraying the consumption as savings. Get more, pay less, is the message. But the less is in comparison to what you would have hypothetically paid for the overconsumption. The main marketing thrust is going to be on the Get More part of the message, the bragging rights to more horsepower than the guy next door, and, as an extra plus, you get self-righteous bragging rights because you're driving an "environmental" guzzler.

Once Toyota puts the hybrid drive into its mass market products, the Camry and Corolla (which, I suspect, they'll eventually get around to after milking the wealthy liberal niche market in the meantime), I'll take them seriously that this is about the environment.[/b][/quote]

It has nothing to do with being overly sensitive. You are blasting a corporation for making a prodcut that will make them a profit, and are also blasting those who would buy said product. Well, it's that profit that brought us HSD to begin with.

Like it or not, those who are successful, and have the disposable income, will be buying luxury cars. Now they have another choice. Toyota first and foremost, IS in the buisness of making a profit. It is how they pay their overhead, and pay the R&D for future products. HSD exists to reduce fuel consumption, reduce emissions, AND make the company money. The luxury car market is one where performance sells the product. Touting fuel economy in the luxury market will not generate the sales for this car. Their target buyer WILL respond to the performance aspect.

As for the Camry, it's slated to be introduced next year. The Corolla was slated for either '07 or '08, last I heard.

 

I can't look at a Honda the same way, now that the 'performance' Accord Hybrid is out. They went away from real fuel economy to more HP. Why are economy and efficiency bad words? I think I understand the marketing of it: more power is good, it seems to sell. Why? No one is asking me why more power is good, but car companies sure are telling me that it is good. Will it extend my life, make me younger, better looking to the opposite sex? In view of the fact that Peak oil is looming over our heads, how can ANY company just ignore the future by consuming more? And I see the points being made. Fun. Disposable income. Not everyone cares about the environment. The day we ALL become more attune to what we are doing to this planet will, sadly, be a day too late. We seem to blowing every chance we have to run ourselves out of oil, etc. And to get one more point in: how many people can afford the GS450? How many people can afford a more practical mini-van or Prius-sized car? The realist in me says many, many more would be able to afford the practical mini-van or Prius-sized car. Okay, I'm done with my views, let's continue the discussion.

 

Why does power sell? OK, fun factor aside - think of it this way:

We'll say that I have a car that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds and a car that will do 0-60 in 12 seconds.

Now I may not "use" that power that will get me to 60 in 6 seconds every day.

However, that power gives me the ability to get up to speed, and be able to merge easily on that metered highway on ramp to the highway packed full of cars.

On a mountain highway, I can get up the hill without flogging the car to get to the top.

I can also utilize tighter passing situations getting around that lumbering rock truck that's kicking sand and gravel all over me, and is consequently pitting the hell out of the windshield and paint.


The 12 second car runs MUCH harder getting it up to speed, and may even have me trying to merge while still not up to the speed of traffic. It's more stressful to the driver.

That highway grade may have you down to 2nd or 3rd gear on that grade, with the engine wailing away under the hood. It's tiring hearing that drone all day long.

I have to work the 12 second car MUCH harder to try to pass that lumbering rock truck, meaning that I may be stuck behind it untill a gap in oncoming traffic, sufficiently large to work that car up to a safe passing speed comes along. Now I'm getting mad as my expensive investment is getting sanded to death.

In effect, power sells because it gives the car buyer more of a sense of control over their driving environment. It makes what is deemed as a chore, more pleasant, less stressful, and leaves the driver less at the mercy of hoping that the person that they are trying to get in front of is a "nice" defensive driver.

In short, you really need to be in a situation where the benefits show themselves on a daily basis. Most of the time, the performance of my Prius is more than enough. However, there are times when I do wish that it had a bit more under that little hood.