Featured Leaf vs Prius

These are the volumes submitted to the EPA for the 2015 and 2016 Leaf and Prius.
Compare Side-by-Side

In cubic feet, the Leaf is 92 passenger/ 94 cargo. The gen3 Prius is 94/22, and the gen4 91/27.

The figures on their sites can differ from those, but we have no way of knowing what specific standard they are using there. For these EPA values, they are both using the same standard. Or should be.

 

In the car club we have "older" and "younger" Tesla owners. We have "older" and "younger" LEAF owners. The Insights and the Prius have faded away. Results are not typical as several members have built conversions. The Ranger & S-10 platforms are popular.

In head to head cargo stuffing competition using the same boxes the LEAFs always beat my Prius. It takes a Model S with the seats down to beat a pickup truck.

 

Interesting...
..with or without seats down (on the Leaf/Prius)?
Is under the floor space on Prius used in the competition?

 

I think I posted this article before, Why Cargo Specs Can Stretch the Truth

"Why is it so hard to compare cargo space? It's because different automakers follow different cargo space accounting methods. The methodology in question, called SAE J1100 Motor Vehicle Dimensions, is rooted in SAE drafting standards from 1963. A formal version was approved in 1973 with comprehensive revision in 1975. Eight subsequent versions came between 1984 and 2009, explained Neil Mitchell, a senior design engineer at GM. But there's little consistency as to which version automakers use. Toyota said it employs the 1975 version, which it says the EPA mandates for cargo volumes that classify a car as subcompact, compact and so on. Hyundai said it uses the 2002 version; Honda said it uses the 2005 version. Chrysler, GM and Ford said they use the 2009 version."

 

the eyes don't lie. i don't care how high the roof is on a leaf or c-max, i'm not carrying pink flamingo's.

 

For visual comparison, here is our Leaf (top) and Plug-in Prius (bottom) with the same 22.5" x 20" x 10" box in the cargo area:

 

We get a pass/fail only, but it is possible to get a value if we look at the machine during the test, in %vol units.

 

Looks like they are close in the amount of floor space. Which makes sense from the exterior measurements. They both have the same wheels base, with the gen3 being an inch or so longer. The gen4 adds a few more inches to the length. Those wheel well bumps just really bugger the Leaf's potential though.

Pretty much the same here. So a car owner can't see the car's emissions getting steadily higher over time. Granted, it isn't a lot, but is something that won't occur on a BEV.

 

OK here's the cargo space data I have.

It's always hard to know what spaces of the car that they are including in the numbers. I believe these are the total boot space values from floor to roof, presumably not including under floor in Gen3.

Reported Cargo space, ft-3
USA EPA method (EU VDA method)
Nissan Leaf = 24.0-ft3 US EPA (13.1 ft3 VDA in Europe)
Prius Gen3 = 21.6-ft3 US EPA* (16.1-ft3 VDA in Europe)
Prius Gen4 = 27.4-ft3 US EPA** (17.7-ft3 VDA in Europe)

* presumably Gen3 quote does not include the 3-ft3 for under floor space
** Gen4 is the no-spare tire case as Europe does not have the w/ spare tire option

>>Bottom line for me...EPA method appears totally bogus (for hatchbacks).
>>EU method is good, but it is a box loading technique, so it's 10-15% low

 

After 23 years service, my Carina may have increased tail pipe pollutants (as I said very low rate since passed within Euro 1 limits), but its fuel consumption is about the same as new, meaning CO2 emissions roughly equal.

And what about BEV battery efficiency chg-discharge? Does it hold over time?

 

The EPA looks fine for an estimate for comparison. With the same wheelbase, and near same length and width, the gen3 and Leaf will have close to the same area for the cargo floor. Those wheel well bumps aside, it appears that they do in the photos above. So length and width wise for cargo they are close. Not having a Kammback, the Leaf's tradition, squared off hatchback rear means there is more vertical space for cargo use.

Those wheel well bumps are horrible intrusions into the cargo space, and likely account for the lower VDA measurement. It might be possible that their impact into the space can be mitigated on the EPA value depending on measuring points, but they aren't the sole reason that the Leaf has a larger space by EPA.

The article I posted stated that the EPA doesn't use a box test like for trunks and in Europe, because it was deemed impractical. I think it would be the best way to go though.

It wasn't CO2 that closed Paris down to traffic last summer. The CO, hydrocarbons, and NOx are all bad locally. Then harder to get petroleum will result in the car causing increased CO2 emissions, even if its fuel consumption remains the same.

You run into problems focusing on one pollutant and mostly ignoring the others. But that is a side issue, I mentioned this because ICE car emissions do get worse over time. Then the regulations are getting tighter, so the cost for the equipment on the ICE car is increasing. There are simply no tailpipe emissions on a BEV to get worse, nor is there emission equipment to maintain. That is the concern of the power plant operator and regulation enforcement, not the car owner or manufacturer.

Likely not, but it is probably tiny degradation compared to capacity loss. ICE also lose efficiency over time, or start burning more oil.

IIRC, I started this tangent because the lack of 'tailpipe' emissions is a plus for a BEV over anything with an ICE to the car's owner and local community. Neighbors with asthmatic kids don't worry about anything coming out of the tailpipe, and the owner has another set of equipment that he doesn't have to worry about.

Now an aging BEV might lead to an increase in emissions at the power plant. Just like any aging electrical appliance. It is easier to monitor emissions and maintain the equipment for their reduction at a single, stationary power plant, than on thousands of small, mobile cars. Then the countries in which a BEV is a realistic option for a person are taking measures to reduce their electrical generation emissions in most cases. While it will become dirtier to to get petroleum over time.

While I hope renewable gasoline and diesel come to pass, the possibility of going 100% replacement of petroleum fuels requires the grid to supplement much of our transportation needs.

 

Following the Brexit vote, what are UK owners thoughts on Toyota and Nissan plants in England that supply the European market with hybrids and batteries?

 

i'm sure everyone will keep playing nice. it's to no one's advantage to snub another country.

 

I beg your pardon. I didn't ignore pollutants, quite the contrary, you seem to underline CO, HC and NOx.

Tangents much welcome. This quote looks more focused than your previous guesses.

 

Quite the contrary.
A big reason for having those plants in England is that they helped Nissan and Toyota avoid some hefty tarrifs.
This is about dollars and cents, not about snubbing a specific country.

I would be surprised if they do anything about actually relocating to part of the EU until Britain and the EU come to terms other than making contingincy plans.

 

However, if it comes time to replace a model, are they going to wait for an agreement before they actually start investing in plant upgrades for that model - and delay that model's launch as a result, affecting their global strategy negatively?

My prediction is that the TMUK plant will run at least until the end of the current generation of the models that are currently produced there (Auris and Avensis), but new models are going to go to expansion of Toyota Motor Manufacturing France instead.

Alternately, it's even possible that they'll avoid investment in new models in Europe entirely until this shakes out (well, I expect the Yaris will still be produced by TMMF, so it'll be unaffected). This may mean that the Avensis doesn't get updated at all, and Aurises are imported from Japan.

 

The comparison was with all seats down and cargo could not extend above the front headrests. The boxes were measured and the calculated volume was stated to the tenth of a cubic foot. "Dan" pulled everything out to get 37.5 cubic feet in his LEAF. "Ken" got 32.6 leaving his LEAF intact.

I did not take the competition as seriously I probably should have. My 29.1 cubic feet was stacked on the deck. I didn't remove the deck, the tray and the spare tire because I'm not going to go to that much effort to haul stuff.

I didn't empty the tray under the deck because the one small box I would be able to place there would not make a difference in the overall scoring. (Removing one small box from the deck and putting it underneath did not make enough room to add a larger box.)

Methacton's Electric Car Club ( Methacton Electric Car Club | Educating the public, one car at a time. ) has a video on their home page documenting the competition. They stuffed 16.6 cubic feet into their Lomax. The cargo competition starts at 1:10.

 

I think the "similarities" between The Leaf and The Prius come much more from "us" the potential owners and drivers, than they do the products themselves.
That is I think to an extent we are comparing Oranges to Grapefruits here, but as owners their are a lot of similarities, in wanting efficient transportation that limits or curtails fossil fuel usage, as well as being good/great with emissions.

Toyota themselves have called Hybrids a "bridge technology". And I think that is a fair description. But in a world STILL dominated by fossil fuel burning ICE vehicles, it's a HUGE and I think very potentially long bridge.

If you simply want great fuel economy...in comparison to nearly all regular ICE vehicles, and ease of operation and use? A long with good utility, The Prius is still the king of choices.

If you want more than that? And can deal with the unique reality of owning a charger, and driving with a fully electric vehicle? Then The Leaf offers benefits that a Hybrid, which is a ICE and an electric system combined simply isn't designed to do.

So in a way? I don't even bother to compare the two.
I speculate, that in the future, with products like the Tesla, The Leaf itself, someday full EV vehicles supplant the existence of Hybrids. But I think we are still a long, long way from that reality. For now? Buy in cost, and the fact that there are still a million gas stations coast to coast, and filling up is still easier than plugging in as far as range anxiety goes, and I think Hybrids are still an easier choice for the majority of those of us that would want an alternative to a fully ICE vehicle.

But someday, maybe sooner than I think, I think full electrics will be the choice. The compromises they use to represent are being minimized as development and battery technology improves.
And it makes sense to me, that as far as production goes, it's easier to build something that is a full electric, with only a full electric system, than it is to build a hybrid that by definition is the blending of at least two systems.

 

if the Prius is the 'C' - is it's hatch space a problem? Assuming not - then one has to turn on either vehicles' fuel costs. High or Low Gas or Electricity costs makes the low cost fuel user the winner, one would think. So if you're blessed with gasoline being sold below market cost (as it is right now) - then the Prius runs cheep. BUT ... if you're on fully amortized PV solar ... it doesn't really matter how cheep the gas is ... unless it's free ... and free oil changes ... and free smog checks ... etc. Lots of variables. No one wrong or right answer.
Having put ~ years of driving & 66K miles on both the gen II pri & the Leaf - the Pri's costs for us ran about $7K over those fuel/oil costs. The Leaf is $0 due to solar. But it'll need a $5K battery in maybe 4 more years/45K more miles ... so it'll still be ahead by a few thousand $$. ymmv ... a lot.

is sucks - most remove rear head rests (as in the picture a few posts above) just to make visibility tolerable.
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