Leaf owners: Your thoughts on the battery pack?

I'm bringing this from the other thread.

That is the wrong question.

Will a lower quality LG battery with cooling retain the same capacity as a better quality Leaf battery without the cooling ?

Neither of us know the answer - so lets not pretend we do.

 

I think you are mixing up several things.

First, EPA doesn't rate Leaf to 100 miles - it is rated to 73 miles.

Second, EPA says nothing about 100K miles warranty.

While EPA does require certain emission standard, Leaf will meet zero tailpipe emission standard, whatever be the range or battery capacity.

 

One doesn't have to go against any company's stable of lawyers (btw, after working for one I might add that most big corporations farm out stuff like that anyway), because as you know, there are TONS of plaintiff's lawyers and class action firms that are a lot hungrier. Warranties are NOT just about the junk in the boiler plate. Nissan does have to meet EPA expectations. For that matter, ALL products have to meet a customer's reasonable expectations. Do you know why your dinner chairs were built strong enough for large people to stand on? Because its required. Because we deem that it's expected and reasonable. That's the nature of product manufacturing. Does the chair have to emphatically state in no uncertain terms that the original purchaser may use the chair as a ladder? ... even though it's meant to be sat on? No ... they don't even have to allude to it. In fact, the chair may even state "DO NOT" stand on it, and if it's likely that folks WILL stand on it ... Manufacturer beware.

Now, enter EPA / Nissan. Despite saying in a nebulous way that degradation eventually happens - written claims are made to the contrary, and mileage 'expectations' are stated in writing. If the EPA had no teeth, there would be no point for its existence. Should traction pack failures begin, EPA would go to work. Batteries may fail. Nissan may balk. Nissan may weigh future bad P.R. and fold. Nissan may fight, and then fold. In any event, and talking from experience with product liability, eventually Nissan would have customers with a remedy. Nissan knows it's reputation rides on its product, and one way or another, they're not about to let the Leaf become the next Yugo or Vega. Think of it THIS way ... Glass half full? ... or half empty. You mentioned it your self. VAGUE - nebulous - 'allusion-to-iffy' - maybe the Pack might not last wording. Just what DOES that mean?!? From experience in the legal world, I know that uncertainty in terms means nothing ... except to brush off the less informed.

In addition to stating the Leaf traction pack doesn't require liquid cooling, Nissan has published a chart/graph showing what kind of multiple/excessive battery temperatures will degrade it's pack. So Nissan isn't saying, "trust me". They've already charted out the likely expectation, should folks quick charge daily. That's why the Leaf's firmware logs such things. To keep track, it the drivers are abusers. But abuse has nothing to do with air versus liquid cooling. I'm hoping/thinking that issue is put to bed after mentioning liquid cooling may just be a product if necessity for some battery chemistries.

Would you have them hide that fact ... that daily/multiple quick charges is detrimental to longevity? They never did that. Check back at the post I left regarding battery "no-no's". It's not just daily/multiple quick charging, it's many other things. Even so - batteries and heat dynamics is not new news. How is that anything but forth coming?

Contempt for customers is a lot more volitional than a multi national corporation instituting a crummy system ... then being stuck with it ... a crummy system, because it's impossible to instantly do things a different way. Considering the hard hits that the whole of Japan took (see earlier thread) in the midst of the early roll out - I don't know what more individual employees, or for that matter small groups of employees could have done. My experience is that enough corporate decisions are made "several tiers higher" so that even if large volumes of leaders wanted to do things better/differently, it would be impossible. Many hands are tied on many levels in the corporate world.

I hope your new ride - the Tesla, is everything you expect, and more! Good EV'ing!

 

Ah - I stand corrected;
That's what I get for reading as fast as I forget. EPA actually DOES say 99/100 average range ... but as you point out - it doesn't say 99 mile range for 100,000 miles;

From my warranty:

I must admit, that when I read how Nissan expects owners to do regular battery checks at 12K mile intervals up to 84,000 miles - coupled with the above, it certainly seems acceptable to interpret battery life at (up to at least) 80% at 5 years (ie; 75,000 - 100,000 miles) ..."
Couple that with the following, listed on several pages:

Follow-Up: Nissan LEAF Battery Warranty

but definitely not from CARB ... Cal EPA or Fed EPA. After thousands of miles racked up ... I can live w/ it.

.

 

That is not 99 mile range - but 99 MPGe. This is calculated using the 33.4 KWh of a gallon of gas - and calculating how far Leaf would go on 33.4 Kwh.

EPA range is 73 miles.

 

Not to tangent too much but the 33kWh energy in a Gas gallon - that doesn't count any of the innumerable kWh's necessary to create the gallon, right?

(From EVnut's web site quoting government web page)
http://www.evnut.com/gasoline_oil.htm

If true, we're now down to the low 20kWh's of electricity per gallon ... which would mean the leaf goes farther than a gallon's true 'energy value' (not even counting a miniscule fraction of military/defend freedom costs).
I just wonder how the EPA reconciles the cost to create factor.

 

You can afford a 100k car and you have complaints? Wth! Tesla Roadster eat my dust and fumes: BMW 850CI V12

 

Daniel,

I think Nissan does not think you are a good customer of the Leaf because you asked too many questions about the pack and would likely be disappointed with the capacity lost over time. They decided not to sell you the Leaf and snubbed you by putting you at the end of the line.

 

daniel; now that you have your Tesla and the Leaf's long term issues are no longer an issue the question about the way each company handles battery pack maintenance is still there.

but to be honest with ya, its like illustrating the difference between maintenance of a high performance 12 cylinder car and a 4 banger. one needs $1000 tuneups about every 1500-2000 miles the other needs an oil change every 5,000 miles and has spark plugs designed to be replaced every 7 years.

let me put it another way; two managers. one manages a workforce of 48, the other manages a workforce of 4,000+. both use computer systems to monitor workflows, employees logged out for breaks, etc.

which manager do you think would need the most monitoring help?

The Leaf does have active cooling where they felt they needed it and since you had a Zebra, you can probably understand it. the Leaf's inverter is water cooled and water circulates to keep it cool the entire time its plugged in. now my inverter on my Zenn only had passive cooling (vaned heat sinks) and would literally get hot enough to burn your skin. this caused the charger to run out of spec and was directly contributable to the battery issues i had with the Zenn.

so, we now need to look at what heat is generated, how much and where. the Leaf with a much smaller # of modules naturally requires a much smaller footprint, much less wiring (all of which causes heat due to electron movement) and it generally charges at a much lower current level which also reduces its cooling needs.

to me, its all relative. the Leaf does not need the cooling of a high performance vehicle simply because it is not a high performance vehicle.

 

Oops, my bad. I knew it was 100k... Sorry for the late reply too...

 

What really sucks is when a great product comes out these days ,if the company does not stick it in your back side the dealerships do. I guess they really have us all by the short hairs.

 

Agree for the most part. If they don't think the battery needs more cooling than it has they are likely right.

On the Nissan site Nissan says they expect 80% capacity after five years. They also recommend an 80% charge most of the time. So is 80% the expected capacity after five years of 80% or after five years of 100%? I assume the former. I do think that within five years there will be a pretty noticeable drop in range and unlike a Prius it seems using just Nissan's numbers there that it would certainly need a new battery in 8-10 years (batteries typically lose capacity at an accelerated rate, so it won't lose 80% each five years, but probably speed that loss up).

 

What with Volt battery packs catching fire as of late - it seemed like a good time to pull this Zombie thread (about what Leaf owners think of their traction packs) back from the grave.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/b...gate-chevrolet-volt-battery.html?_r=1&src=twr

Passive battery management? Or Active.
Liquid cooling? Or air.
Complex/expensive temp management? or K.I.S. (keep it simple) ??

Often, people will say that "time will tell". We're a few more months down the road with new EV experiences now ... thousands more Leafs and at least 1,000 more Volts. Perhaps, there may be possible negative side effects of liquid battery cooling in an EV. . . perhaps, in an accident, the introduction of liquid (battery coolant) into the Lithium can have somewhat unexpected results - al la flame out(s) ... perhaps.

That said, eliminating the need for liquid battery coolant seems like a preferred approach, just if one considers simplicity. The LEAF's battery seems to do fine with no thermal management, even as thousands and thousands more Leafs hit the roads.

I understand GM either hadn't completed "battery handling protocol" prior to the 2nd Volt fire - or they had not communicated to the storage folks what the protocol is/ or would eventually be. Maybe the Volt's more complex liquid cooled battery issues is indicative of GM rushing a product to market. Air works for the Leaf. Air works for the Prius. Worked for RAV4-EV's. Coda is soon to be out. It to just uses air. Iduno ...Just a thought . . . this is just a kind of battery pack post mortem, based on reflections of current events.

 

Hi all,

As a former Prius & Prius plug-in (Enginer kit), and new LEAF owner, I would like to share my driving experience with you;
Please see my profile for the link

Regards,

Christophe
Paris

 

just a quick note on this topic. a Leaf owner in Kent, WA rolled 35,000 miles on his Leaf yesterday. he does two 100% charges daily on his 120 mile RT commute. has had zero signs of range degradation. now, it might be because the battery has not had enough time to degrade. he took delivery of his Leaf may 11, 2011.

so he is Nissan's version of 2Fas4u