July 2006 Scientific American - A New Take on Hybrids

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jul 17 2006, 08:27 PM) [snapback]287878[/snapback]</div>

Dude! Thanks!! I had totally overlooked that fact. That cycle does have definite efficiency benefits.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 09:15 PM) [snapback]287870[/snapback]</div>

Isn't cars (any car) are still being refine? This has been going on for over 100 years. The upgrade done in 2nd gen Prius (from 1st) is a huge leap if you compare Camry 2002 to 2007 improvements/refinements.

How about Honda civic hybrid current generation? Is it really a new generation with 5hp improvement for the electric motor. Let's not go that route.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 17 2006, 09:25 PM) [snapback]287876[/snapback]</div>

John, I'm doing nothing of the sort. You said cylinder deactivation wasn't possible on a 4 cylinder, and I gave an example where it was used. You can at least admit that much.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jul 17 2006, 09:33 PM) [snapback]287886[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I'd love to go that route.

What defines a generation?

Honda may have made a leap to a 2nd generation IMA with the ability of the car to move on just electric power. But I'd say at this point they're *just* in their second generation.

Toyota's is harder to classify. There are a lot of variants at this point. HSD in the HiHy/RX400 really isn't the same animal as the Prius/Camry. And where is Toyota's mild system (I forget the acronym for that). That's probably still at 1.0 as well. I'd really like to read more about some of Toyota's japanese only cars, but unfortunately, I don't read japanese.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 08:42 PM) [snapback]287890[/snapback]</div>

Huh? Explain this comment: "Which isn't dissimilar from what Honda and GM's system do..."

It is indeed disissimilar. It is a different type, not able to be used in the same way.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 08:42 PM) [snapback]287890[/snapback]</div>

An interesting change of attitude. I still remember your intense debate that they were indeed past the second generation. What other surprises are in store?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 17 2006, 11:18 PM) [snapback]287952[/snapback]</div>

I don't remember saying that, could you point me towards it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 17 2006, 11:18 PM) [snapback]287952[/snapback]</div>

It's similar in that they both shutdown cylinders in low power and cruising situation. Come on John, just admit it... it's possible. That's all I'm trying to say. You can do it, I know you can!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 10:41 PM) [snapback]287961[/snapback]</div>

Now I know you're not being objective. One type is capable of propeling the vehicle on the highway, the other is not. They are not the same. That is the point. Whether or not they have certain aspects in common does not mean they will deliver the same overall results.

Geez! This is as bad as the "assist" verses "full" confusion. That fact they both have an electric-motor and a battery-pack does not make them the same. The PSD and additional electric-motor most definitely gives the "full" hybrid different operating abilities.

 

Not to be too harsh, but you chose to live out there, right?

Our society makes it too easy to choose car-centric lifestyles because many of the costs of automobiles are external costs not born directly by each user.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 17 2006, 11:59 PM) [snapback]287978[/snapback]</div>

They both propel the vehicle... one just doesn't allow for much (any?) acceleration. But it is entirely possible with a 4 cylinder engine.

 

"We'll see how Toyota markets the Tundra Hybrid. They did admit HSD can't be used for towing which is inevitable in a pickup."

I thought the HiHy had a 4K lb. towing capacity? And it has V6-HSD with electric rear wheel drive, right? Any HiHy owners out there towing? Give us some insight to what the performance is like (not 0-60 times...but, maybe MPG, or power up hills, etc.)

Seems to me it could be put in, at the very least, the smaller Tacomas... and using the GS450h V-8, adapt to the larger Tundra?

Cheers,

Curt

PS Doesn't the Prius have ALL 4 cylinder cut-off at times when cruising the highway? I know the engine is spinning above 45 MPH or so, but not using fuel. So, that is cylinder deactivation, right? The electric motors being larger and more powerful (50 HP and 15 HP?) can certainly propel the car at this point, moreso than IMA's smaller, less powerful (20 HP) motor? HSD is always supplying juice for the system, to be used whenever an efficiency gain can be had. THAT is the beauty of HSD.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Jul 17 2006, 11:36 AM) [snapback]287638[/snapback]</div>

Soo, I guess they sell the boat and camp trailer, leave the kids at home; maybe sell the kids too B)

 

If they have to, yes. You did write, "If they could only afford one vehicle, which do you suppose that they would NEED to keep?" Poor people can't afford boats or trailers, but I suppose foolish poor people might well keep the wrong vehicle. Or try to keep it, for a while.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]287890[/snapback]</div>

As I understand it from Dave Hermance, the Camry's HSD lineage derives more directly from the HiHy/RX400, so it should be grouped as Prius, HiHy/RX400/Camry. I postulate HSD1.0 Prius, HSD1.1 HiHy/RX400, HSD1.1.1 Camry, and the next Prius would be HSD2.0, or 1.5 .

Does Ford detail their hybrid story anywhere like Toyota does? It would seem feasible Ford had enough lead time for their R&D during the PNGV days, and then not throwing it away like GM/rest had.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 18 2006, 09:12 AM) [snapback]288107[/snapback]</div>

Manipulating a definition won't help you this time. They are *NOT* the same. That is the point.

VCM (Honda's Variable Cylinder Management) and DOD (GM's Displacement On Demand) are most definitely not what used to be available in Civic-Hybrid.

They are different. The one type provides far more of an efficiency benefit than the other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 09:42 PM) [snapback]287890[/snapback]</div>

Well, Honda disagrees with you. According to them, 06 Civic has 4th Generation IMA. If you think having the ability to move the car on just electric power is a leap into a new generation then what about the EV switch for Prius. If I install the EV switch, I can go in EV mode faster and I'll have a newer generation of HSD? :lol: :lol: :lol:

1st Gen IMA - Insight
2nd Gen IMA - 00' Civic Hybrid
3rd Gen IMA - Accord Hybrid
4th Gen IMA - 06' Civic Hybrid

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jul 18 2006, 08:35 PM) [snapback]288448[/snapback]</div>

Well Honda can think what they want to think... but in terms of functionality the new Civic is 2nd generation compared to earlier versions of IMA. At least, that's my opinion, at least until John can show me where I've stated otherwise.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 18 2006, 08:11 PM) [snapback]288432[/snapback]</div>

They both shut down cylinders. I don't care about anything else. You said it wasn't possible, I'm saying it is (and providing an example). Your emphatic pointing at vague semantics and attempts to rewrite the argument are falling on deaf ears. (That was written in 1701a mode).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Jul 18 2006, 06:34 PM) [snapback]288388[/snapback]</div>

It sounds good to me, but I would categorize the Prius as THD/HSD 1.0.

Ford doesn't really detail their development, and hasn't provided much information other than what's in the Fusion will be their second generation drivetrain. I imagine that means it will get smaller than it is now (which Toyota really should take a long gander at) and maybe provide a higher electric output. But they really haven't said much about it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 18 2006, 08:19 PM) [snapback]288466[/snapback]</div>

Obviously.

But since the discussion from the beginning has been about the efficiency of each system, what I have been saying all along by pointing out differences is completely on-topic.

You can define functionality or label operation whatever way you want. It still won't change the reality that one system is more efficient than the other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 18 2006, 09:31 PM) [snapback]288473[/snapback]</div>

John, all I said was it's possible, whereas you said it was impossible. I was right, you were mistaken. End of story I'm afraid.

 

Can HCH 4-cyl engine run on 1-cyl and cruise at high speed? What is the purpose and benefit of running on 1-cyl? Does that increase emission? Why not shut down all cyl like Prius and have a larger battery pack and powerful electric motor? Prius can shut down all cyl and go stealth at high speed (70+ mph or higher?).

Can 06' HCH accelerate in electric mode or does it only "spend" electricity to keep the ICE reciprocating to cruise? A nice addition in their 4th Generation hybrid. :lol:

Dennis