July 2006 Scientific American - A New Take on Hybrids

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 17 2006, 01:13 PM) [snapback]287593[/snapback]</div>

Well, prior to the current system, the old Hybrid Civic could cruise on one cylinder.

If the Prius could do that, I'd imagine it would be a nice MPG boost.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 17 2006, 09:45 AM) [snapback]287530[/snapback]</div>

I almost agree BUT, there are no sidewalks for me to walk 10 miles to work and there is no public transportation where I live. There are no bike lanes either. I don't pay attention to the dudes by themselves in the 4 door crew cab extended bed 4X4 Trucks. But 99.9% of the time I do notice the women driving there CaddyLACK Escalades by themselfs while on their cell phones.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ServoScanMan @ Jul 17 2006, 10:30 AM) [snapback]287605[/snapback]</div>

A little sexist here B)

So, a DOOOOOD can do it, but them wimmmin better not in their 'uppity Caddies' eh! B)





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 10:25 AM) [snapback]287602[/snapback]</div>

A nice boost, but after suffering an HCH, I did not save much and dropping to 3rd gear and A/C off just to make those long hills at 44MPH (and 33MPG B) ) was nooooo fun at all

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 17 2006, 09:54 AM) [snapback]287584[/snapback]</div>

You need to get out of Ramona once in a while. There are several days in the La Mesa area where I often see a full Prius, every Saturday couples come to the Grossmont Trader Joe's in their Prius. My nurse and I drive to work alone but that is because we work "in the field" and cannot carpool, van ride or take public transport.

I'm glad other car makers are trying to come up with something. I will still look forward to upgrading my Prius somewhere between 08 and 10.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Salsawonder @ Jul 17 2006, 11:02 AM) [snapback]287618[/snapback]</div>

Heh, heh, I do leave Ramona every day and commute to North Island, alas, alone since my wife now telecommutes :mellow:

On the road at 0415 and again at 1400.

But, I see that you got my point about 'need' B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 17 2006, 11:54 AM) [snapback]287584[/snapback]</div>

The small truck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VaPrius @ Jul 17 2006, 04:50 AM) [snapback]287464[/snapback]</div>

I alway get a kick about the "heavy battery" argument. the batteries in the Prius weigh less than 100 lbs. 20 gallons of gas weights ~124 lbs. Now, before I get clobbered, I know that, since the gas gets burned off, the 'average' weight of the gas in 62 lbs, but frankly, the "battery weight" issue is a non-starter. I also wonder about the difference in weight between the Prius ICE/MG combination and a 3L 6-cyl engine. Anyone know?

Dave H.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 17 2006, 11:54 AM) [snapback]287584[/snapback]</div>

There's definitely a value in computing gallons per commuter mile. But single occupant vehicles are not limited to Prius owners, otherwise the HOV lanes would always be full. I'm puzzeld why you're attacking Prius owners for not ride-sharing, but it's okay for people to own big gas-guzzlers that 98% of the time are used for nothing more than commuting (again, alone) and getting the groceries. Your particular construction scene is the exception, not the rule.

I volunteer with a prairie restoration group, and every year we have a native-plant sale. I help with directing traffic, and our "parking lot" is a grass field down a bit of a decline. Every year you have SUV drivers look at that ramp down and say "Can I get down that?" That's despite the fact there's already plenty of cars there. I like to tell them that a Honda Insight got in and out just fine (although the Insight driver didn't show up last year, unfortunately). So they buy these big vehicles but obviously never take them off the pavement. Then we had a person trying to load some small trees into her Hummer. However, it didn't have the optional opening back window, so she had to stick the leafy top part into the drivers area, it was a tight squeeze and distracting for the driver. The person before loaded more trees into his little Ford Ranger.

There is a need for large vehicles, but it's not 40% of the marketplace, or whatever the current statistic is for mid/large SUV owners. My rationale for giving up my beloved Subaru Outback for a Prius was that on the very rare occasions I needed a bigger cargo space, I could rent a truck for the day for less than $40, which is about what I'd save on gas in one months time (I don't drive a lot).

Growing up on a farm, we and most people in my area had a pickup truck. But they also had at least one little car for the non-farm driving back and forth. Match the need with the appropriate vehicle. It's very clear, most SUV owners aren't doing that, it's more for show.

(For the record, I bike when I can, including to work, but there's few bike trails here. American society has not built for that at all, and certainly hasn't for walking either.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 08:04 AM) [snapback]287536[/snapback]</div>

Quite correct. The "drive-by" auto press (a close relative to the standard "drive-by" media) has gotten the Toyota/Ford patent relationship wrong from day one. There was a patent rights trade between the two organizations. Toyota is not making huge amounts of money off from Ford for the patents that Ford is using with their hybrid, and Ford is not makeing huge royalties on the patents they have shared with Toyota. A very smart business move for both organizations. And neither one has to go out and reinvent the wheel, so to speak, for the respective technolgies they have been granted rights to use.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Jul 17 2006, 08:35 AM) [snapback]287554[/snapback]</div>

I'm not a mechanical engineer, however it seems to me that the HSD system could be adapted to heavier vehicles easily. And Toyota is doing that right now. The Highlander and the RX400h are not light weight vehicles. Both of those vehicles have limited towing capacity, meaning that the HSD systems built for them are focused on moving the rated gross vehicle weight rather than for the potential towing situation. Again, this is an efficiency consideration. Because most utility vehicles such as pickups and SUVs are designed to have some kind of towing capacity, that is extra power that is provided by the manufacturers that is not always necessary to move the vehicle. That extra power and capability of a standard utility vehicle is never used by a significant group of buyers, however it is still there and it still consumes extra fuel.

I'd give Toyota and Ford and others time and they will be able to adapt HSD to larger vehicles and also provide towing capability.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 09:02 AM) [snapback]287512[/snapback]</div>

The single cylinder pumping that Civic-Hybrid offers is not used for extended driving, only to sustain light-load engine power for short distances. It is quite different from what the GM products and the Honda minivan uses. They are most definitely not the same.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Dupuy @ Jul 17 2006, 11:36 AM) [snapback]287573[/snapback]</div>

Well said!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Jul 17 2006, 12:10 PM) [snapback]287660[/snapback]</div>

Well, you would have to reread all that transpired in previous contexts.

In any case, I pick on Prii because there is a certain "holier than thou" attitude amongst some of us when it comes to other vehicles. I see a lot of small cars with only one driver and several large vans with several in them. And yes, I do see the single driver SUV.

SUVs have become the whipping boy designate for all of our ills, but in reality, for some it is the one vehicle that makes sense for an active family that tows a boat or trailer for recreation.

Second, not everyone can afford multiple vehicles. I could even now, I just care too spend the extra insurance, etc.

I used to have 3 vehicles:

GEO Metro
Motorhome
Porsche 911

Now I only have the Prius...

 

One of the advantages of the two mode system over the HSD is at highway speeds power is lost going through the two electric motors as GM says. About 10% of that loss is electronics and I think in the next HSD 2008+ Prius that will be fixed by newer electronics. It is possible today to have near 100% efficiency in the electronics/motor controller now. This would have been very expensive just a few years ago, now it would not be.


The HSD is one of the most beautiful designs I have seen. The next version will be even better. The design CAN be scaled up to bigger vehicles as it has no belts or pullies and even no clutch. No, HSD is not great for towing but thats about the only weakness I see.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hampdenwireless @ Jul 17 2006, 07:42 PM) [snapback]287839[/snapback]</div>

It's only an advantage if someone is actually using it. On paper does't mean squat.

And by the time two-mode does finally become available, the mindset will be to put even greater emphasis on electricity use. So having a way to disable it completely for the sake of relying entirely on the engine instead won't be all that compelling of a feature. Remember, a super-charged Prius (just after driving down a mountain) has the ability to stealth at highway speeds.

But people can debate all they want. What really counts is actual sales. If there are not any two-mode hatchback, sedans, or minivans available, it won't make any difference anyway.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 17 2006, 05:06 PM) [snapback]287728[/snapback]</div>

Which isn't dissimilar from what Honda and GM's system do... reduce engine power when the load is light.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 11:04 AM) [snapback]287536[/snapback]</div>

Even if Ford developed their system independently, Escape hybrid came out in 2005. Let's say they started the development 5 years ago, then that's in the year of 2000. Second generation Prius was available in Japan by that time! If ture, it is one of the worst automotive engineering blunder.

Unless Ford started their hybrid development at the same time as Toyota in the year of 1995, that story can add up. Then, it takes Ford 10 years to develop, test, produce and sell when Toyota did it in 2 years and gone through 3 generations in 10 years.

It doesn't look good either way you look at it but they get credit for trying and coming up with a better system/design than Honda.


Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 17 2006, 12:52 PM) [snapback]287608[/snapback]</div>

I hope I didn't come across that way. I'm attracted women. B) I was trying to make a point. Today when I left work to get into my Prius, there where 10 pickup trucks to the left and 10 pickup trucks to the right. The moment I saw that I wish I had a camera. Not one of those trucks have more that one person in it. They are all driven by men. It's a male ego thing down here in Texas. I rarely see a man driving a Expedition or Escalade. In this part of the country they are mostly driven by women and usually alone and usually on the cell phone. I almost got hit again today in the gym parking today by one on a cell phone. So on the way home today I notice almost every single car, truck, and SUV had one person in it. Yea, some had passenger but not many. Not to mention all the 18 wheelers had one person in it. I have only seen two other Prii in this area. One white one and one black one. Both were driven by women and both a multiple passengers in them. My point is - your observation is different from my observation. Just my opinion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jul 17 2006, 09:02 PM) [snapback]287857[/snapback]</div>

Is it really 3 generations? Or is it one generation that's really just been refined and refined? I'm thinking the second one.

The main difference between HSD and THS was just some upgrades, a bigger electric motor, and a new name.

Ford basically jumped in, got most of it right, and did it in a smaller package to boot. Maybe they'll slightly upgrade it, throw electric A/C, put the new system in the Fusion and call it Hybrid Combination Propulsion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 17 2006, 08:02 PM) [snapback]287856[/snapback]</div>

Another attempt to undermine, eh? There are different types of deactivation, just like there are different types of hybrids. Don't pretend they are all the same.

Honda's Civic-Hybrid deactivation was nothing but a way of taking advantage during modest speed reductions before fuel-cut. That's it.

Honda's Odyssey deactivation, which is just like that in Accord-Hybrid and what GM recently began offering, works far more often. It is for continuous engine use needing modest power, like when cruising down the highway or along a suburb street.

In other words, one type is momentary. The other type can continued to be used for literally hours.

That's a huge different which is easy to explain. With the larger engine, 3 or 4 cylinders still providing power is enough to maintain smooth pumping cycles. With the small engine, only having 1 cylinder would be pretty rough at times other than slow down without any help. But since "assist" hybrids cannot run their electric-motor continuously, that type of deactivation use is very limited.

 

On highway at cruising speed, lets say ICE is making 18hp. In HSD, no more than 1/3 of the power goes to the electric route. Therefore, 12hp goes mechanical route and 6 hp goes to generator. 25% loss of 6hp is 1.5 hp. If you look at the big picture, for the worst case, 16.5 hp or 92% makes it to the wheels. Pretty good, considering you always have the electrical path available to use the battery boost at any time.

Cylinder deactivation will not be as efficient as Atkinson cycle. This engine will have more loss before the power even get to the two-mode system.

Cheap and reliable like the 4 speed automatic transmission? Ok....

PSD+MG1+MG2 is about the same size and weight of an automatic transmission. What do they mean big and heavy electric motors? Maybe they mean the two-mode hybrid will use tiny 15hp electric motor to move a huge Truck or SUV?


Dennis