Jetta TDI vs. Prius, San Francisco on a tank?

The new US 2.0 TDI is not the same common rail engine that is sold in Europe. The US version has a different particulate filter and NOx catalyst. This allows the US version to have significantly lower emissions that the EU version.

 

Right now that is true, diesel is quite a bit more expensive but I wonder how things will look in one or two years when refineries finish maximizing diesel production due to more profit per gallon produced. Also world wide problems are also increasing the demand for diesel, such as usage of diesel for power generation due to disruption of power grids.

Anyhoo what we really need in America is the smaller European cars, like the VW Polo 1.4 TDI rated at 57.6 city 88.3 extra urban and 74.3 combined (imperial gallons) or roughly 47.8 city, 73.2 highway and 61.6 combined. The era of large vehicles is over in the US and we need to switch to smaller vehicles, trains replacing semi's, and other vehicles. Google the 1L car which VW wants to put into production in 2010, states around 200 mpg but sadly we will never see such a car here in the states

 

Aye, A few of my friends work at the refineries in Benicia/Bay Area and they talk about how they are ramping up diesel production due to higher prices vs gasoline.

I know of some remote areas (e.g. Ayacara, Chile) that are picking up diesel-powered electricity generation. Your post seems pretty spot on.

 

diesel is widly used in the rest of the world i know that for sure, if we are only talking strictly on MPG, but it is more polluting as well

most people dont want to wait 2years to determine how they will be saving $$$ on fuel cost...so as of now the Prius still reigns supreme IMO

 

It all may be a moot point if we can get algae oil up and running in production for the masses. Lots of speculation on the quantity needed to replace the whole US transport fuel supply but a large number I heard was 4.5 million acres of algae. Easy to produce considering how much land the government pays farmers to sit fallow, etc.

I just saw something today about the ethanol boon causing the largest dead spot yet in the oceans. Corn ethanol is a stupid mistake. I hear you on pollution from diesels, new methods such as GTL (gas to liquid) from Shell and other BTL (biomass to liquid) are a solution to the pollution problems by removing almost(?) all the sulfur and contaminants from the fuel. Diesel-electric hybrids are a good start but I am interested in the development of the des-otto engines which combine characteristics of combustion and compression engines w/o the pollution.

We need options right now that are TEMPORARY along the way for end game solution. Better to take small steps then none at all and just speculate at what will come in the future.

 

only a change so the different pollution laws of the us will work with the Europe 2.0 TDI.
can also be done with the eu version and stil will it be more polluting then a modern eu 2.0 TSI petrol car. or a 1.4 TSI because that 1,4 TSI will be almost nice person powerful as a 2.0 TDI
the 1.4 TSI is a turbo charged petrol engine like the turbo charged TDI

you don't need the smaller cars with diesel engine's you need the smaller cars with petrol engine's like the 1.4 TSI from Volkswagen.. if any.
the 1 liter car is a demo and wil never come in to production
its only for research beter fuel economy and to show off VW capability's

 

Yes, the long-block (physical engine) is the same. The fuel mapping, injection timing, and exhaust emissions equipment are completely different for the US version. Yes, VW could sell the US version in the EU but they won't because they won't need a reduction in NOx until Euro V.

The 1.4 TSI is a nice engine. Is is not a simple turbocharged petrol engine. The TSI has both a turbocharger and a supercharger. The supercharger works at low RPM and the turbocharger works at higher RPM.

The TSI also has lower torque and the HP is at a higher RPM compare to a TDI.

1.4 TSI (170 PS @ 6000 RPM) and (240 NM @ 1500 RPM)
2.0 TDI (170 PS @ 4000 RPM) and (350 NM @ 2000 RPM)

It is amazing that the TSI has peak torque at only 1500 RPM!

The TSI also doesn't have significantly lower emissions than the TDI and the TSI uses 15% more fuel.

From: VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Home Page

------------------------------------------ (170 PS) ---------- (170 PS)
------------------------------------------- 1.4 TSI ----------- 2.0 TDI
Combined Fuel Economy (l/100km) ------------ 7.3 ---------------6.4
CO2 (g/km) ---------------------------------- 174 --------------169
Interior Noise (dB) ---------------------------- 73 ----------------71
CO (g/km) ---------------------------------- 0.244 -------------0.074
HC (g/km) ---------------------------------- 0.056 -------------- N/A
NOx (g/km) --------------------------------- 0.057 ------------ 0.206
Particulates (g/km) -------------------------- N/A -------------- 0.001
Yearly fuel cost (UK Pound) ----------------- 1,494 ------------- 1,398

As you can see the only place that the TSI beats a TDI is in NOx and the US TDI has much lower NOx than the EU TDI.

Again, I'm not saying that the TSI is a bad engine, it is a very good engine. However, the TSI is not superior to the TDI engines. I would like VW to bring both the TSI and TDI engines to the US and get ride of the very low technology 2.5L they currently use.

 

Is this contest over?

 

FYI here's a comparison I did of the new Jetta against the Prius and a few others a while back. The new Jetta is a huge improvement on the old tdi, and not a bad car all around. However, as far as I can tell its not really in the same league as the Prius overall. The Prius is larger, cleaner, cheaper to purchase, own and operate, puts out a less CO2, uses less petroleum, and should be more reliable based on past performance. You could argue that the Jetta is competitive against the Camry Hybrid, except that its much smaller. You could argue its competitive against the Fit, but its much more expensive.

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/49909-2009-vw-jetta-tdi-emissions-results.html


There are a lot of factors that go into deciding to purchase a vehicle. Based on past experience I would guess the new TDI is probably a nicer car in many ways. But on the grounds of air quality, energy independence, and money I can't see it holding a candle to the Prius. And lets not forget we're comparing the brand new TDI to the 5-10 year old tech in the Prius. When the '10 Prius roll in I think the gap will be even more dramatic.

As far as the test goes its pretty clear its nothing other than a publicity stunt. Kind of like the one they did in the UK a few months back with the BMW diesel. Sure if you put a manual diesel up against a Prius and only drive on the freeway and drive the Prius very badly to boot (the uk guy managed a pathetic 41mpg US as I recall) then yes, you can make the diesel look good. Here's a more balanced comparison done over a variety of conditions with an aim to drive efficiently:

Honda Civic Hybrid vs. Toyota Echo, VW Jetta GLS TDI, Toyota Prius - Green Machines/Car Shopping/Hot Lists/Reviews/Car and Driver - Car And Driver

Prius: ------ 50mpg
Civic Hybrid: NR, but #2
Jetta TDI: -- 42mpg
Toyota Echo:- 41mpg

Prius: ------ 52mpg
Toyota Echo:- 41mpg
Civic Hybrid: 40mpg (53 when turning AC off at stops)
Jetta TDI: -- 33mpg

Prius: ------ 54mpg
Civic Hybrid: 54mpg
Jetta TDI: -- NR
Toyota Echo:- NR

All four vehicles averaged between 14 and 16 mpg on the track.

While the new Jetta TDI does have significantly improved power and emissions, it does not appear to have delivered on the promised efficiency improvements over its predessesors.

Car -------------- City ----- Hwy ----- Cmb --- all 2008 revised
'06 Jetta TDI 5sp - 30 ------- 37 ------- 33
'09 Jetta TDI 6sp - 30 ------- 41 ------- 34
'06 Jetta TDI aut - 30 ------- 38 ------- 33
'09 Jetta TDI aut - 29 ------- 40 ------- 33

The EPA does admit that its current test does underestimate diesels. I expect that the real numbers will be closer to the independently tested ~40-41mpg combined that VW claims. However, these numbers are a fair comparison between the '06 and '09, and clearly indicate to me that there is no real expected efficiency improvement in the engine. The highway improvement is probably all in the gearing. On the manual they go from a 5sp to 6sp, resulting in better highway mileage (very similar to Chevy's result with the Cobalt XFE). On the auto, it looks like they gave up a little city mileage to do a little better on the highway.

Lastly, bio-diesel is cool (probably way better than ethanol) but not a silver bullet by any means. Currently you will void your VW warranty if you run anything over 5% BD. While running WVO would be carbon neutral and nearly free, modifications are required to the car (if you could even get a modern injected diesel to run it) and its pretty labor intensive. It also has the same emissions (other than CO2) as dino diesel, which means that smoke belching 80s Mercedes is just as dirty on WVO as it was on diesel it just smells better. Running bio-diesel processed from WVO is less carbon neutral, less free, more labor intensive but does improve most emissions (other than NOx). However its not really scalable to mainstream. Running bio-diesel from virgin oils is very not carbon neutral, and often not domestically sourced due to cost. While there are promising technologies (like algae) for producing BD in a fairly sustainable manner, they are far from being proven commercially viable or even scalable. Hopefully they will eventually be cost competitive with gasoline and diesel, but I have a hard time believing they will ever approach the cost effectiveness of electric.

With todays technology (and incentives) you can run from solar and be emissions free for ~2c/mi compared to ~8c a mile for a Prius, ~12c/mile for a TDI, or ~18c/mile for an average 22mpg gas car. I see the Prius, and soon the PHEV Prius as stepping stones towards BEVs which is a big part of why I chose to support them. I don't see the same near term path for diesels, although I think eventually you could make a case for small diesel engines w/ BD as intracity range extenders in long range serial PHEVs/REEVs. Todays diesel offerings still seem like a step backward to me, rather than a step toward the future.

Rob

 

today there is also the FSI and TFSI engine's don't now what that is? you have any info?

still if you look at a 1.4 petrol competing at a 2.0 diesel..... i am more impressed by the petrol then the diesel engine

 

FSI: Petrol, direct injection, naturally aspirated
TFSI: Petrol, direct injection, turbocharged
TSI: Petrol, direct injection, supercharger + turbocharger
TDI: Diesel, direct injection, turbocharged

As I said, the TSI is a nice engine.

 

Interesting that this event happened on Tuesday, and yet there appears to be no news about the outcome. No sign of the "video blog" entires that were supposed to be posted along the way either.

Rumor on one of the VW forum is that Prius lasted 590 miles, and the TDI made it all the way in. Of course the TDI has ~40% larger fuel tank. At 485 miles the Jetta was said to be reading 49.5, with the Prius reading 46mpg.

I'm actually impressed. If the Prius can almost beat the TDI straight up (never mind the higher cost and CO2 output of the TDI's fuel) in an obviously staged publicity stunt that endeavored to favor the TDI in every possible way, I think its pretty clear that under most real world driving conditions there should be no contest.

Rob

 

hmm looks like a publicity stunt gone bad. TDI may have slightly beaten Prius in a purposely staged environment but not enough to justify the extra cost of the fuel.

 

I guess they didn't let quite enough air out of the Prius tires

 

So what was the outcome of this crazy exercise?

 

How could we know the result was accurate anyway? With the bladder in Prius, single tank measurements have a large margin of error.

On the Road Rally in 2002, we refilled several times. The drive was over 1,200 miles. That helped. But it was mostly highway. Even so, the diesel still got beat by both Prius.

.

 

rumor has it the TDI won by 3½ mpg...

well, even that rumor needs to be examined... i bet, the TDI lost is why we have no results

 

It's still a silly comparison, the 140 hp/235 lbft TDI is a rocket compared to the Prius anyway.

 

Hi eb,

Ha. Yep, I would not call a .2 (that's 1/5 ) of a second a "rocket" advantage for the Jetta TDI.

2008 Volkswagen Jetta TDI - First Drive Review/2008 New Car Reviews/Car Shopping/Hot Lists/Reviews/Car and Driver - Car And Driver

The Prius does not have HP, but it has lots of negaseconds built in. Toyota itself says it has the acceleration similar to a 140 hp DOHC gasoline car.

So you have to ask yourself, do you need a car that saves gas and money, or a car that can haul a small trailer up a mountain interstate. Because hauling a trailer at high altitude is really the only Jetta advantage.

 

According to your link the OLD TDI ran 0-60 in 10.2 seconds. They guesstimate that the new 140 HP TDI will do it in the mid-8 second range. (VW UK rates their 140PS (~137 HP) TDI at 9.3 seconds in the 0-62 (0-100km)) That would make it new TDI more than 1 second faster than Edmunds 10.4 second 0-60 time with a 2008 Prius.

A one second improvement in 0-60 is nothing to laugh at. It is also the reason that the new 140 hp TDI doesn't have an improvement in fuel economy over the old 100 hp model.