Japanese engineering superior to ours?...

they're the ones that go to managment and say " you have to cut XXX$ from a project and management tells the engineers to cut XXX$ from the project and the final result is the project fails or is a POS. Either management had the wrong vision or failed to tell the accountants that we need funding to do the job right. The engineer will always cut corners till the project is a piece of junk.

 

Frank, thank you for pointing out the real culprits in any failing venture: pukey management. We've got way too many managers in the US and not enough leaders. (Could say the same for our government but that should be saved for another topic.)

There are lots of great engineers in this country. We just haven't used our brain power properly. Look at the examples of our steel industry, the airlines, transportation businesses in general. They've been run into the ground. It's a failure of vision and planning, not a lack of required know-how.

But our engineers are retiring and leaving the field. And we aren't training enough engineers to meet our future needs. The Mechanical Enginnering societies wail about falling membership and dwindling student enrollement. Sometimes they wonder, in whispers, is mechanical engineering dead? Maybe what engineers (electrical, mechanical, civil, what have you) need is a revamp of their profession.

 

You mean the thing based on the PowerPC G5 which IBM developed which is based on the PowerPC family that IBM and Motorola and Apple developed with some extensions thrown on for Sony?

Sure, good example.

 

lets not mistake computer application software and hardware development with US based companies.

just because microsoft intel and AMD are US based, does not in any way mean that we are responsible for all of, or even HALF of the innovations in the field.

globalization of the industry happened YEARS ago, and most of the more important innovations ARE NOT from US engineers and programmers.

Israel for one has issued a huge number of patents in several high tech fields.

 

That's what I said, didn't I? I said it had a lot of IBM, and therefore American technology in it, but there's a REASON why it was a joint effort between Sony, Toshiba and IBM. It's a design that doesn't resemble anything else that IBM is doing.

And the Cell is not based on the G5. Not even remotely. Just because it uses the same ISA for the general purpose element in the Cell does not mean the architecture is anywhere near the superscalar out of order architecture of the G5. WRONG WRONG WRONG... The Cell is not a G5 with some extensions thrown on by Sony. The Cell is a completely different beast unlike anything.

The Cell is a two issue in-order CPU. It lacks an instruction window completely, so in that sense it is not as complicated as the G5. The G5 is an out of order architecture, much like most general purpose CPUs you'd find in a modern desktop computer. Those types are aggressively speculative, while the Cell is not. Instead, the Cell leverages a high number of simplier synergistic processing elements.


I don't even understand what your point is. The Japanese are just as good as we are in engineering, but they focus on different areas.

Like I said before, Japanese tech is strong, but we'll only see it if it's embedded in some kind of cultural object, like Playstation.

 

As far as car recalls, look at the history of Honda, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc. Looking at just one year or one quarter paints a definite skewed picture.

Remember those trolls we had about a month or two ago who were ooohing and aahhhhing about JD Powers & Associates "proving" how much better GM was than Toyota et al? The two teenage boys were amusing, but how about that guy who claimed to be from a Chevy dealership?

I personally don't place much faith in a marketing consulting firm, but still took the bait and plunged into JD Powers to see if that was true. Sure enough, GM overall had really improved their "short term" quality.

But it still fell way short of Toyota.

As far as engineering, I contract for a global private engineering firm with many links to process control, telecomms, aviation, and defence. The Big Deal right now is the money and effort put into India and China.

I fear the engineers in North America are now a dying breed. Many new projects that are not subject to Citizenship rules are farmed out to India and China, some to Japan too.

Deal with it, it's reality.

 

i think part of it is the Japanese mindset. We actually care more about our reputation than making money. Take for example a woman from the US who wanted to buy a bidet toilet in Japan (this was before they came out in the US). The store owner would not sell it to her because he wouldn't be able to help her if the toilet did not function correctly. The woman really wanted it, and even offered extra money, but the owner gave a firm no. And in Japan, no from a store owner REALLY means no.

 

Right you are. Sadly, that "can do" attitude disappeared a long time ago.

This loss was foreshadowed by the Canadian government's decision to cancel the Avro Arrow project. Many very talented Canadian aviation engineers left to work in the United States, some at Skunk Works.

It was the first obvious example of THe Brain Drain. I wonder if in the near term we'll see a similar Brain Drain from North America to China or India?

 

Frank:

I'm glad you had the Chutzpah to bring that up. I would refine that statement to read "dump 2/3 of beaners and 2/3 of middle management and corporate management."

The beaners and management work hand in hand to dumb down a product to the point of it almost being useless.

jay

 

I've been to Tokyo twice, and know some Japanease folks. I've always found them almost painfully polite.

Words like "no ... can't ... won't," etc are frowned upon. They're usually very apologetic and nice. It would be VERY rude - even shocking - if in response to a question the person replied "No that's impossible bug off."

 

Many people have asked this question to me...

YES it is superior because it is designed that way. American cars are designed to be piece of junk. Someone recently told me that at Phillips, they spend more time figuring out how to make a light bulb that will predictibly die. The engineer said "It would be so much easier to make a light bulb then lasts a lot longer". GM invented the word "Planned Obsolescence". Remember that word?

Do you remember...
How many of us have driven cars that fell apart? Transmissions that died in less then 30K, and engines that fell apart less then 3 years on the road. If I ask my co-workers, nobody wants an American car.

It's not the workers...
Same people who made those crappy cars are making reliable Japanese cars. It can't be the "LAZY AMERICAN WORKERS". Heck, many American cars are Mexican or Canadian made thanks to NAFTA. More chaeper American junk cars will surely come with CAFTA soon.

So why do Japanese make good cars?
It's quite simple. Their engineers have a strict restriction in Japan. In Japan, you have to go through a super strict inspection that'll make inspections in the states look like a joke. This happens after 3 years (from what I recall) after the car is bought. If the inspection fails, then expensive repairs have to happen. It used to be anual, but I heard they made it less frequent. It's not atypical that Japanese buy new cars every 3 years. First of all, they don't need to design planned obsolescence as the consumers will replace things easily. It's funny but Japanese are willing to try new things. Look at Prius. HDTV was out for a long time in Japan. MD, DVD, Beta, MO, you name it and they'll try it. So there is no use to design cars to pursuade customers. In the first 3 years, Japanese expect no problems with their cars. Also, much of 'high/new" technologies are stripped out of the US models due to lower education and intelligence of American mechanics. Sorry, but I don't trust my life to a highschool drop out. So I do my own brakes.

Next...
In Japan, bad reputation will kill business. A recent example is Mitsubishi. Last year their trucking division was found to be hiding a problem similar to the Explorers in the states. Since then, their sales have tanked in all divisions and I think they ended up selling their shares cheaply to other companies to bail out. Thanks to that, Nissan, Honda, and Toyota are reporting great results.

I wish FORD should've gone through similar things to demonstrate that US does not tolerate this type of behavior. INSTEAD, the people who buy Fords (and other American cars) are let's just say "happy" people who wouldn't mind driving around in vehicles laced with problems. Don't forget their Crown Vics. Many police departments have dropped them because in a rear collision, the tank will explode. Yet, Ford has shoved it under the carpet. Same thing with GM with their SUV. If that was a Japanese company (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc), they would be in severe financial difficulty because everyone will stop buying from them.

But who cares about American Auto Companies?
A lot of their stuff comes from Mexico anyways... I say buy Japanese cars so they will employ more American workers!!! Only person who benefits from buying American cars is a coke snorting execs. (That's an inside story... I knew a former exec at one of the big 3 and I heard many stories.)

In the end, it's not that Japanese make superior cars. They don't try to make a junk that falls apart after few years. You say American cars have improved. Well... Yes they did. That's because they got their management and factory trained by constultants from... Japanese Car Manufacturers. Buick was one, and Saturn is another. So why go to the apprentice, when you can go to the chief mechanic? Besides, soon as things gets better, you know those execs are going to stab you in the back. Shame on you once, Shame on me twice.

How many times do you have to get stabbed in the back to learn your lesson?

P.S.
Don't worry, American Car companies will be acquired/mergered/dissolved and soon will be owned by foreign company. Those execs don't give 2 cents about anybody but fattening their bank accounts. Don't worry that while they are laying off thousands, the exec are getting muti-million dollar bonuses.
(I bet you are thinking "So what's new or different then other companies?" .... My points exactly.).

 

I don't know of any company called Phillips. But there is a Philips, and they're based in Europe, so I have no idea what this point has in relation to Japanese engineering being superior to ours, unless your European, in which case that would make sense. And Philips, AFAIK, is a leader in selling florescent bulbs, which last about 7 years, and I use those bulbs all over my house.

But it's good that "someone told you" something and you believe it outright.

Can I "tell you" I have a bridge for sale for just 100K dollars that's worth a million dollars? And will you buy it? I'm someone, and I can tell you!

 

Okay, so if it weren't for all of the engineering that IBM and Motorola and Apple did on the original G5/PowerPC, would the cell look anything like it does today? Would it exist in anything like it's current form?

 

Ever see somebody in a Dodge Ram Quad Cab and that truck is plastered with decals like "Yeah, it's a HEMI!," "Proud American," and my personal favorite "Support Our Troops!"

That is SO ironic! The person in tooling around in a Taco Truck and he is delusional enough to actually believe he is HELPING American workers! Especially how a gas guzzling POS is "supporting" our troops. Yeah, whatever.

Similar story with the new Chrysler 300: it's assembled at the Brampton Assembly Plant in Brampton, Ontario

Sadly, the entire concept of "quality control" was pioneered by Dr. W.E. Deming in the United States.

http://www.deming.org

When he first tried to pitch his idea to American firms in the 1950's, they more or less told him to bug off. He then was invited to post-war Japan and the Japanease welcomed him with open arms. Literally. Deming is held in VERY high regard over in Japan, statues and everything.

Yet we somehow managed to piss away those ideas. So do we blame Deming, the Japanese, or ourselves? I think we know the answer.

 

Pretty much everything is built on the backs of great men who preceeded us in engineering. You just have to be careful not to get caught up in patting yourself on the back.

 

i think you misinterpreted my story. Obviously the store owner did not respond in that manner. Why don't you try haggling in a store? You will get a "no" Just not "No, bug off" They probably won't say NO literally in Japanese, but maybe something along the lines of, dame desu or... I can't do that.

I shouldn't have used "firm" no. What I meant was that he was firm in his position that he would not sell it to her, even though she was offering more money.

 

Another factor is the mind set that is used to approach the design, manufacture and maintenance of vehicles. I suggest Amory Lovins' book "Factor Four," with a main message that says if you want to double your profit, double your efficiency.

I have owned several Toyota vehicles long-term. The engineers pay particular attention to detail and pack a lot of information into every component on every vehicle. Quality integrated with detail speaks loudly.

 

I've owned one Toyota vehicle, my Prius. Since I've had it, it's died twice and the center armrest is coming apart. I would say my impressions are not as favourable as yours.

 

My expensive 2000 GMC Sierra SLT truck that I special ordered also left me with a bad taste in my mouth. The AutoTrak automatic transfer case kept failing on me, specifically the 4x4 mode select switch cluster and the reluctor rings in the front driveshaft.

Whenever the AutoTrak would glitch on me, the truck would show "SERVICE 4WD" in scary amber letters in the Driver Information Center. A couple of times this happened out at the cabin I used to own, and I ended up stuck on the steep hill trying to get to the highway. By default, a glitch in the AutoTrak and it reverts to 2WD mode.

How could GM have produced so many defective 4x4 mode select modules, or bad reluctor rings. Of course, their excuse was "it's new technology, you have to expect some bugs."

Or the Vortec 5.3 in my truck that started knocking at 5,000km. Very nice, a new truck and when I started it in a parking lot it would knock like a diesel. They claimed "carbon deposits" how the hell does a motor develop "carbon deposits" after 3,000 miles of driving??

As far as "carbon deposits" the 302 V8 in my 1984 Ford F-150 has over 530,000km on it, and that motor runs smooth and silent. There should be enough "carbon deposits" on that old motor to make it knock, right?

The overall anemic brakes were scary, and those "drum in hat" rear disk/drum parking brakes were a beaut. I have a 1984 Ford F-150 that I bought new, and the parking brakes ALWAYS worked on that thing. Changed the shoes twice over 530,000km.

2000 GMC Sierra, if I didn't take it in every 4-6 months to have them adjust the "drum in hat" the parking brakes wouldn't hold. When they WORE OUT at 64,000km I was expected to cough up $450 for new ones.

I could relate similar tales about a 1985 Chrysler 5th Avenue my folks bought new, or their 1993 Ford Taurus. Overall the domestics make crappy cars, never again. That 2000 GMC really convinced me of that.

 

It's ironic. I was thinking about Prius technology the other day and happened to look at my key ring. I noticed the Prius black metal logo tag and turned it over to find the tag was stamped, "Made in the USA".

It's sad that this may be the only part of the Prius that is made in our country. My how things have changed.

M. Kaliski