Featured Jalopnik reviews 2018 Bolt

The costs of batteries have already come down faster than predicted, and should continue to do some. But I think Tesla is the only one leveraging mass production principles to the rest of the EV drive train for reducing costs. Then the econo BEV of the future may not be like today's BEVs. A couple of the big auto parts suppliers are working on 2 or 3 speed transmissions for EVs. The cars lose the smooth drive for the use of a smaller motor to reduce price. Perhaps even a switch to a DC motor. The majority of home EV conversions were DC motors connected to a donor car's manual transmission.

Keep in mind that price is only part of the car's cost. A diesel and hybrid both cost more than a gasoline car up front, but can beat it in total ownership cost. That may even be true today for a BEV in Europe.

The Model T wasn't the first car.
It wasn't even the first car made by Henry Ford.

The Prime is simply a great deal with Toyota's aggressive pricing, and I wouldn't be surprised in Chevy dealers are pushing the cars less than Toyota's.

 

heard an ad on the radio for prime today, $2,500. rebate.

 

If I were forced to buy a Prius, it would certainly be a Prime!
There's simply no reason not to!!!

In some states they're cheaper than the cordless Prius, and even if you live in an apartment it just doesn't make any sense to turn down the government cheese and get the bigger battery.

 

except for the lost in hatch space

 

What if you want a smaller car?

What if you just want lower battery replacement costs down the road? The prime hasn't been around long enough for waves of people to get hit with traction pack replacement costs yet, but I'm curious to see if they are sustainable.

 

The Prime and the hatch are about the same size. Bisco made a valid point about the interior volume of the Prime over the hatch, but for ME.....and I would submit most other people the bigger battery, lower overall cost after kickbacks, and higher potential resale value make it a better buy even if you never bother to plug it in.

The battery thing mostly.....isn't.
They've been proven to be a 10-year or 150,000 mile part.

People are always flopping and twitching about the cost of a battery replacement in Priuses but nobody ever really thinks about HVAC, brakes, transaxles, or any of the other subsystems in the car that can cost as much as the traction battery.
This is one of the things that the EVangelists get right.....and wrong about BEVs.
Batteries have either arrived as a viable prime mover (pun almost intended) or they haven't.

They've pretty proven to ME that they have......but there are still lingering "battery anxieties" out there that are going to have to be dealt with or the replacement cost for a T3's battery (@ 75kWh versus 8.8kWh for the Prime) will be a factor - and I think that I remember that T3's all have the same battery pack so this begs the question about replacement costs for the unicorn version of the 3 where the customer will potentially only get to use 5/8 of the battery capacity.....

Primes are about to start their third model year and I have yet to hear about one blowing through a traction battery......

YMMV

 

pip is in 7th year and hundreds of thousands of miles, with very few issues.

of course, if you're looking for a car that will last forever, i'm sure there are plenty of gassers that never have major expenses after a hundred thousand miles.

 

Or fifth seat.

The larger battery could last longer before needing replacement than the cordless. There is more capacity to lose before it hits the point where the car can't move.

As long as there is the incentives, the resale will be based off what it costs to get a new one. If a new Prime is less than the Prius, then the used one will be too.

 

or spare tire, compared to some of the hybrid gen 4 models, not all.

 

I'm waiting to see what the pricing is when Bolts start coming off leases.

 

There are several useful car classes smaller than either of those.

Right, but some people expect cars to last longer than that, and either way some will look to enable it just to see if it's somewhat economical.

Putting a $3000 battery into a $6000 car happens today. Fortunately it will be a while before we find out what a battery replacement will cost on the prime.

Excellent points, thank you!

 

I would think the Bolt's main competition would be Tesla Model 3 base model.

 

How is a small 5-door hatchback competition for a medium 4-door sedan? You have to look at them very sideways to see the equivalancies (battery, motor, management systems etc) between these cars. And most people are not going to do that.

Right now, the only way the Bolt is worth $38,000 is with 190 $100 bills stacked and tied in the glove box. I understand that you and I are currently paying to put 75 of them there.

 

I wonder if truly fast charging (equivalent to a "gas up") will ever be possible with a battery vehicle. Maybe with some kind of super capacitor storage instead of a battery, but the physics of foreseeable battery technology just doesn't seem to be there.

On the design and infrastructue side there would be lot's of gotchas. Ya gotcha massive heat, ya gotcha conductor sizing and insulation requirements. Ya gotcha demand spike surcharges. Ya gotcha switch gear. Ya gotcha exploding cars.

The electrical demands to quickly dump a high volume of KWs into a battery seem to be a bit, shall we say, exotic. And where would these high capacity "fuel stations" be located in relation to grid infrastructure? In substations? All of a sudden dino juice and fuel cell tech looks pretty good.

 

My opinion is based only on reading:

• Here: https://pluginamerica.org/how-do-chevy-bolt-and-tesla-model-3-compare/
• and Here: Tesla Model 3 Chevy Bolt comparison, pictures - Business Insider

 

Battery tech is in flux and is being developed by many. There is solid state battery that is being worked on. That promises to get rid of most of the current LiOn woes. Shorter charging, no heating and very little degradation with use. I am sure there are other technologies in the pipeline. Hydrogen fuel cells have been around for a very long time and they are pretty much in the same place as they were at the beginning. Rechargeable batteries have evolved a lot since the NiCad and are now being seriously developed by industries that see the writing on the wall. Electric cars are here to stay and the only way is forward. As for infrastructure, it too is evolving. And it would be useful to not think of public charging stations in the same way as you think of public gas stations in terms of demand. The demand for public charging is not going to be on the same scale because many people will charge their cars at home. While there are many gotchas, they are not insurmountable, just like any other developing technology. Think of the cell phone network. There were a lot of gotchas with it and still are, but it's up and running in most of the world in less than a decade. When there is profit to be made, there are no shortages of solutions to most gotchas.

 

The CARB warranty on hybrid batteries, with or without plug, is 10yrs/150k miles, and cars need to be certified to it in order for HOV stickers and other state incentives. To minimize warranty costs, most manufacturers are going to design the covered systems to exceed the warranty terms.

Just like some transmissions, engines, and other pricey car parts, some batteries will die an early death, and some will far exceed it. A couple gen1 Prii got to 300k miles on the original battery. Hybrids using lithium chemistries date back to at least 2011 with the Sonata.

At this point in time, few people are directly cross shopping ICE vs. BEV cars. They'll decide first if a BEV will work for them. The only 200+ mile ranged BEVs that start under $40k, and are available nationwide, are the Bolt and Model 3. They might look at the new Leaf, if their range requirements allow it.

The people that can consider a BEV aren't budget constrained to a $22k car. If they want a small hatchback ICE, they'll be comparing the likes of a BMW or Mini to the Bolt. My father has a Countryman. It is a nice and fun little car, but I didn't find the differences between it and my Sonic worth the $10k difference in starting price.

I mention the Mini because the people willing and able to buy a Bolt measure the car's worth differently than those limited to a $20k car.

Many are working on faster charging. IIRC, there is a link in the OP article on even GM getting into the game. I'm waiting to see CARB's reaction to VW's 300kW chargers.

It won't work with batteries that are air cooled. Prototype charger cables are liquid cooled themselves. Local temperatures and cooling may limit the capacity the pack is charged to to under the 80% fast DC goes to now. I expect an actual station with such ultra chargers will have energy storage(batteries, capacitors, flywheels, etc.) on sight to buffer charging against draw from the grid.

Maybe the fuel cell lobby will get off the hydrogen pipe, or Al-air batteries will make an appearance, or a break through in flow batteries will allow a simple swapping of electrolyte instead of charging. Simply moving away from fossil fuels will make ICE range extenders workable.

 

This a reasonable response.

Contained cooling systems add complexity, expense, power consumption and weight, reducing BEV efficiency. The portable electrolyte is an interesting idea. I am going to have to learn more about that.

Issues with high voltage transfer systems are going to be huge unless systems can be adapted beyond what we have today. Mechanical and insulation failures are most prevalent in malfunctioning switchgear, and these dangers are going to be present in rapid charging, not only in the "fuel station" gear, but also in the car charging components (the wild card in the typical charging session, even if the fuel station equipment is in good order). Electrical energy has many complexities that arise with the elevation of voltage and current in systems. I saw a large copper conductor in a key data center that had failed due to a mechanical connection issue. The results were spectacular, and the extent of the damage extensive. "Angry pixies" have a lot of potential, but do not forgive errors in design or operation.

I look forward to the future, and see the BEV being a large part of the transportation system in the future.

 

Flow batteries have been around for awhile. A Powerwall competitor should be on the market next year in the US, with a 25 year life to the electrolyte. It is vanadium chemistry. That and others have a terrible energy density compared to Li-ion. Fine for stationary use, but not cars. Other chemistries use unstable, potentially explosive compounds.

A group in Scotland has moved onto prototype pumps for their chemistry. I think it got posted here, but little details. I suspect it costs more than Li-ion if it matches the energy density.