It's official Toyota is full speed fuel cells for compliance after 2014

9.9lbs is 4.5 kg.

That's a lot of water. Driving on the highway it will be insignificant, but in a city where you're crawling along it could add up. In a warm coastal town it might be ok but in a cold damp November evening in the UK it could make things unpleasant.

You say a FCV 'only' produces 37% more water vapour but that similar percentage applies to NOx in a Euro diesel car compared to a petrol etc.

Still, even if the cities do become more humid, necessitating increased a/c use by residents, at least it's still better than soot and other nasties from petrol and diesel.

 

Vapor from the tailpipe drops to the ground in the extreme cold and instantly freezes causing road issues here every winter.

 

FWIW, water-vapor (0.804 g/L @ STP) is lighter than air (1.27 g/L @ STP), and more so when warmer than the surrounding air, as it would be exiting the exhaust pipe.

 

There are many real and vexing issues with FCV's, but the data leads me to believe that water vapor emissions are NOT one of them.......

Water vapor dissipates rapidly and can barely be distinguished from background flux and the massive amounts of natural evaporation and water vapor in the atmosphere that absolutely DWARFS anything put out by humans.

That is what makes it different from the other tailpipe pollutants you mentioned; those tend to stick around and harm human health & the environment.

That is why even though water vapor is a GHG, in the history of GHG regulation, NO one has ever called for controlling human-produced water vapor, precisely because it is so insignificant.

If you live in the UK....I believe there are approximately 20 million or so ICE cars there? Is water vapor currently a problem there (yes, I know UK is a damp place, but I'm talking 'man-made' ) ? No, of course not. In order to put out the same water vapor as the current ICE fleet, the UK would have to have 15 million FCVs on the road. Needless to say, that is a LONG ways away :0

As far as tailpipe water vapor freezing on roads, they could possibly do exhaust treatment that mixes it with a (environmentally friendly, since it'll end up in the storm drain) solution of some sort that prevents freezing, in much the same way modern diesels use urea exhaust after-treatment; this would of course only be needed in cold climates, so it is a 'possible' disadvantage compared to BEVs

Absolutely! I couldn't agree with these comments more. FCVs are the ultimate "bait & switch", and has been since the 'FreedomCar' days under George W. Bush.
It's the same refrain, over and over: "Hey, we don't need to build EVs.....we're working on these FCVs and that is our future."
So, FCVs are always "what we'll be driving in 10 years", and they keep saying that every 5 years FCVs are "only a few years" away.
It's time to call BS
As far as Big Oil, they are quickly becoming Big Gas.....I think I read Exxon Mobil is actually a 'gas company' if you look at their reserves based on BTUs rather than dollar value.
I still don't see why they'd be for or against either one.......FCVs would use H2 that is reformed from NG......while EVs would increase electric demand, which would be met by........wait for it........NG power plants

 

I would really like to know what Toyota's expected (or estimated) sales quantities are for the hydrogen car. I can't imagine it would sell anywhere even close to the quantity the RAV4 EV sold. It would be nice to know if Toyota considers 10 hydrogen cars sold per month to be a success or a complete and utter embarrassment to the taxpayers. Realistically I see the ELR selling better than the hydrogen cars. I really do hope time will tell and I am proven wrong, but it's getting a bit depressing seeing our tax payer money going down a black hole for this technology.

In addition, I would like to know what the plan is for actually pricing out hydrogen fueling stations stations. If it costs more than gasoline, a significant portion of potential buyers will not even bother, and only the environmentalists will be attracted to it. However if it's free or cheaper than gasoline, how the heck will it ever make back the initial investment to build up the fueling stations? Or does Toyota expect the government to continue funding hydrogen stations for at least the next 200 years? I haven't heard any word of Toyota (or other car manufacturers) offering to build their own hydrogen stations.

Will California just make hydrogen Blue HOV Stickers and kick out all Green and White HOV Stickers from the carpool lanes to forcibly promote the hydrogen market? Realistically that is the only thing that I could imagine pushing the market at all, but I could just imagine the outcry from the White Stickers.

 

Will Toyota name this new vehicle "The HINDENBERG EXPRESS" by any chance? (wink,wink)

 

I need a citation to support the "MITI funded Prius development" claim. I cannot find anything on google about it, so it sounds erroneous.

So fuel cells get more ZEV credits than electrics?
What brain dead liberal on the CARB decided that?
(Perhaps related to the congressguy who thinks islands "tip over".)

Maybe the reason car companies are pushing Fuel cells is because they like seeing customers drive lots of miles, whereas Electric cars are self-limiting (~150 miles per day).

 

Yup, they decided to bump up the ZEV credits on hydrogens and give electrics less.

Source: CARB ZEV Program Changes; Tesla Takes Largest Hit, Fuel Cell Tech Wins

 

... than a new car. Our old non-hybrids cars are currently putting out 100% more, our old SUVs 200% more. For areas with fog and excess humidity and icing issues, an FCV's water emissions would still be an improvement over the status quo. So I see this particular item as a non-issue.

 

Perhaps I am getting the math wrong here, but it's 8.9kg of water vapor per kilogram, or GGE, of hydrogen burned. The hydrogen gas is naturally in a H2 state, which has a formula weight of about 2.016. Which means there is about 496 moles of hydrogen in the kilogram. After burning, there is an equal amount of moles of water. Its F.W. is 18.016. Multiply that by 496 for the mass of the water vapor.

It might have an effect during the winter when the water vapor could form black ice.

The out going Honda FCEV got 60 miles/kg. If the hydrogen does cost $5 a kg, the fuel cost would be $2.50 per gallon for an equivalent ICE car getting 30mpg. I doubt the $5 includes tax though.

http://www.evaap.org/pdf/incentive.pdf
Government policy & the development of hybrid and electric vehicles in Japan | Think Carbon

Doesn't have the subsidy listed but does have info of the history of programs for the US, EU, and Japan.
http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9514/951407.PDF

 

^^ that's correct since 1Kg H2 ~=2 lbs H2 ~= 1 lb mole H2 ~= 1 lb mole H2O = 18 lbs H2O (divide by 2 for approx Kg)

For Prius burning 1-gal gaso I get about 8-lbs H2O made...but average vehicle is 25 MPG now

 

The liberals are going to bankrupt California. First they spent a ton of workers' money on electric highways up & down the state, but now they want to just abandon the idea! (In favor of making a hydrogen highway.) they should just change their name to "wasters".

 

WHY do you think the rest of continental USA keeps trying to break away from California (the BIG one)...(wink,wink)?

 

What we see here with Toyota is the standard corporate fossilization that happened with GM, Ford, and Chrysler once the great vehicle vision was replaced with pure financial focus. The FCV has essentially nil market pull (i.e. Consumer Demand), so market push (Government/Industry regulations and economic manipulation) is at full throttle. The only question is how much throttle must be permanently maintained to provide critical mass. All it takes is some amount taxpayer money to be permanently redirected from EVs to FCVs. That is really the only variable in play here.

 

Sung to the tune "Whatever Lolla Wants": "...Whatever EPA Wants, EPA gets..."

 

Pointing out how vile this whole thing is . . . it just makes me wonder - Is there any chance we'll end up getting banned from PC for spotlightiing the hydrogen insanity? That's about the only thing left that could possibly make this wet dream any more stupid. All this ... It's how I spell comic tragedy.
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