Featured Is Toyota Prius hybrid simply passe now that plug-in cars are here?

larger battery (higher charge rate) along with active liquid cooling, bigger inverter, lower mass, proper software should all be in consideration on regen. Feel may stop a company from doing the most efficient regen.

In a car like a prius at most 25% of braking energy can be recaptured. In a phev this can increase.

The big boost though is in efficiency at low speeds of battery to motor versus gas tank to engine.

Regen recovery is small compared to use to overcome rolling resistance and drag.

i3 - 138 mpge city, 111 hwy
i3-rex 127 mpge city, 107 hwy
accord 124 mpge city, 105 hwy

accord has lower drag, i3 has lower rolling resistance. Adding the rex engine raises weight and rolling resistance.

 

However, as the battery ages, it would appear as though the chemistry responds differently. My observations over the past 4.5 years is that the internal electrical resistance has become lower. So even though the recharge quantity has dropped from 3.1 kWh to just 2.5 kWh of electricity, the distance I am able to travel with EV has remained consistent. There’s also the fact that the vehicle loosens up over time and consequently becomes more efficient.

For example, today’s commute to work delivered 14 miles of EV driving. 80,000 miles and 2,400 recharges later, that’s still right on par for what I got when the Prius was new.

In other words, the net result is showing no loss.

 

Boy, the PiP dynamics/results sure contradict Honda's capacity loss. Ergo their class action lawsuit. Once their traction packs' capacity dropped, their mpg's sank into the bogs -
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257 MPG from my 18.6 mile commute this morning.

I am clearly not see any degredation from the battery-pack... despite all the miles and the number of charges.

 

Do you use a kill-a-watt meter or similar device to measure how much energy is going into your traction pack?

 

ChargePoint has my entire charging history for each time I parked at work, since way back in March 2012.

 

I'm not sure these kW ratings are relevant. Often the main limiting factor is the battery. For example, the Accord Plug-in has a 124 kW motor but it's battery outputs a peak of less than 60 kW.

I'm not sure why the Prius Plug-in is listed as 18 kW. The motor is 60 kW and the battery has a reported peak output of 38 kW although INL measured closer to 30 kW under full acceleration with the gas engine kicking in.

This may be useful:

2015 Honda Accord Hybrid | Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity

 

- do you mean limits in the battery path?
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my pip has lost about 5-10% of ev miles, but at 28,000 ev miles, i'm a lot higher use than most.

 

I'm not sure what you mean....

The battery has ratings for max output and max input. These can be a lot less than the motor size with a smaller battery pack and a series hybrid mode with a bigger gas engine like in the case of the Honda. Just comparing based on motor ratings alone seems misleading for this kind of comparison, as I understand it.

 

max charge/discharge 'ratings' are not max charge/discharge. Think coat hanger between the ± terminals. That coat hanger is strictly a 'mechanical' limit based on the wires' diameter. Very little work load, lots of resistance. Electronic limits are your controllers. So, by battery path limits - i simply meant the electronics used to regulate how much can go in or out of the traction pack. Think Tesla, when you buy one with regular power - or upgrade to Ludacris. Ypu may have a 700hp motor - but if the software limits the top 20% - then your battery will deliver accordingly. It's simply a software "rating". So I think we're saying the same thing pretty much.
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The right idea but reversed:

• (117 MPGe) 27 lbs/kW = 3375 lbs / 125 kW - BMW i3-REx
• (115 MPGe) 32 lbs/kW = 4000 lbs / 124 kW - Accord Plug-in
• (98 MPGe) 36 lbs/kW = 4000 lbs / 111 kW - Volt
• (95 MPGe) 194 lbs/kW = 3500 lbs / 18 kW - Prius Plug-in

The ratio of mass-to-motor_power determines how much energy can be recovered (and how fast it is off the line in EV-only mode.) The BMW i3-REx has the lowest mass per unit of motor power so it can absorb more of the kinetic energy (i.e., regen) before having to use friction braking.​

Sources:

(1) MPGe - Fuel Economy


(2) kw - Fuel Economy


(3) "Test Car List Data" epa.gov for 2014


Understand I prefer Argonne Labs data because they fully instrument the cars, control the test conditions, and provide data with 0.1 second resolution.

The Idaho National Labs testing appears to be more focused on 'field' testing and some of their numbers are not well defined (i.e., BMW i3-REx 'cost per mile'.) If there is a specific metric INL have that is different from these sources, bring them out.

BTW, if there is a conflict in data sources, I've found the web curators quite approachable and responsive to questions from the public. In fact, it makes their day to know people care about the data and their work.

Bob Wilson

 

Check and compare the internal and external dimensions. The Volt slightly bulkier outside and with slightly less passenger room.

 

Well sure, you can drop a metal wrench across the + and - terminals and watch the battery flame out...

I was talking about the recommended/designed power ratings from the manufacturer that are then enforced by the car maker's engineers.

 

Yes, a LOT of folks like me keep their car outside; making a a plug-in impractical. Another car occupies the 1 car garage in my condo so the Prius is outside all the time. Running a charge line under the garage door daily would be HIGHLY inconvenient and many other drivers are in the same boat so an awful lot of people will likely NEVER buy a plug-in for that reason alone. Therefore, I see hybrids remaining relevant for the long-term. Right now, low gas prices are depressing sales but that reality won't endure forever.

 

I fully appreciate the problem and would add some technical details.

Our BMW i3-REx was barely tolerable using a 120VAC circuit. The charger that came with it would only use 12A which meant always over night to make up for my daily, 10 mile commute. So I became a 'free charger' vampire looking for all high-capacity, 240VAC 30A, chargers.

For reasons having to do with a 48 year old house, adding a NEMA 14-50, wired for 50A, turned out to be expensive just under $5k. Yes, I could have done it cheaper but I never want to have it done over again.

If you have a dryer circuit, the affordable, cost effective solution would be a circuit with a dryer plug on one end and NEMA 14-50 in an outdoor, curb side, all-weather box. Obviously 'condo' issues.

Another approach would be upgrading the facilities to have a designated, Level 2 EVSE. There are electro-political issues we should discuss in another thread.

I found that having a plug-in changes your perspective, gestalt.

Today I was thrilled to find another 'free' charger closer to home and a different business area. I can walk the dogs away from traffic; find food to bring home and; beverages with WiFi while waiting. The new 'free' Level 2 charger is strong and only 3 miles from home, 3% SOC. I'm headed there to walk the dogs and investigate the walk-around places.

Bob Wilson

 

Sue.

Suit says '13-mile' range for Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid was deceptive

 

Ultimately, in my case, the problem is that to get to a public J1772 (not someone's garage), I'd have to drive a Prime's AER to get to it, one way.

Seeing as I don't want to just run an extension cord across a sidewalk (granted, not a public sidewalk, but still)... that's part of why I went non-plugin.

 

it's the inevitable transition from horse and buggy to automobile. it won't happen overnight, and surely some people took their horse to the grave for one reason or another.
that doesn't mean hybrids are passé, just that they're a bridge, as toyota stated a long time ago. some have crossed the bridge, many are on it, but most are still avoiding the river. does that make them passé?