Featured Is it ethical to purchase a lithium battery powered EV?

I try to not be behind big trucks, they tend to kick up a lot of debris and with all the automation built into today's windshields, replacing one is not something I want to do.

What I was really asking Bob if he traveled in densely traveled routes in his trips as having to match speeds could drive up his MPH and thus up his energy usage. Or were his trips on traffic sparse roads and thus he was free to set an optimum speed.

I've said before I travel a specific route and depending in traffic, my average speed will vary 3-5 MPH. Late at nigh I'm free to drive slower and pulse and glide a bit. In rush hour, I'm pretty much forced to the speed limit.

 

We’ll I’ve been pretty much a GDI (Independent) which means I do not let others affect how I drive. My first car was a 1966 VW MicroBus that served me well. But my 2019 Tesla has a trick.

At a stoplight, I beat the rest of the traffic across and reach the speed limit 200 yards ahead of the pack. This gives me lane choice and amusement as the pack tries to catch up.

I was a little heavy on the accelerator when driving my SO to the airport but otherwise, 65-70 mph is my ideal cruising speed. I use the Tesla trip graph to make sure I reach my next charger with early, small adjustments.

Bob Wilson

 

I can't seem to remember when one of my lithium battery powered cars had an electricity spill.

 

lol.
They do. Sometimes the bms screws up and lets them get too hot and they start fires. Not nearly an environmental disaster like a refinery explosion or a tanker, well, or pipeline leak.

Here is my question? Is it ethical to use misleading arguments to keep people from switching from oil to electricity. IMHO no it is not.

 

Ahhh.... but when did ethics ever get in the way of pushing a personal uninformed opinion or pure greed at any cost?

T1 Terry

 

You mean gas burners?

 

:lol: Has a different meaning in Australia, "gas" is LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas), CNG (Compressed Natural Gas or Methane) or LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas or Methane)
The fossil fuel burners are either petrol pigs or kero burners (diesel).
The opinion of many in opposition to electric vehicles has been installed by those with a vested interest in keeping the fossil fuel industry alive. They range from the petroleum industry, internal combustion engine manufacturers and all the way down to those who cart the fossil fuels or currently sell the fossil fuel or service fossil fuel vehicles ..... they all have a lot to loose in the short term.
In the longer term, those with half a brain will quickly adapt to the EV world and service their needs. Recharging stations have a captive market for a longer period than the fossil fuel sellers, so adding a few shops and eateries expands the potential wallet drain on the customer while making their recharge stop seem enjoyable to the extent they would recommend others to use the service centre.
These same service centres could again include an automotive repair facility. This could be an interdependently operated business that deals in tyres, basic vehicle servicing and even a recovery service for those that didn't actually make it to the service centre. From there they could expand to battery testing and cell replacement or complete battery pack upgrades etc .... still plenty to service in an EV if set up for it.
The last are those that cart fossil fuel, the hybrid trucks will still need turbine fuel, new batteries don't deliver themselves, nor do the used batteries move themselves to the recycling depot ......

All those small business opportunities that vanished when vehicles became more reliable and travelled a long way on a tank of fuel, will have an opportunity to arrise from the ashes ..... even the highway motel ..... and drinking/entertainment venues that could entice a tired traveller to stay over night while their vehicle recharged and got new tyres or what ever was required ......

T1 Terry

 

Platinum, palladium and rhodium are three minerals that are mined and used in catalytic converters. Since these minerals are obtained in similar methods that are used in obtaining battery contents, is it any less ethical to purchase a vehicle that uses a cat? Just asking for a friend.

 

OK I take a crack at it, precious metals are religiously recovered and recycled...I am not sure what % of platinum is mined vs. recycle content, and I have not heard the Pt mines being a big eco-dent. These materals are catalysts, which means a small amount treats a whole lot of volume. You are talking grams versus tons
Watch Saturday Night Live Highlight: New Mercedes - NBC.com

 

On the OP, many in the public are convinced ANYTHING is better than fossil fuels. For example, cutting down rain forests to grow palm oil and sugar ethanol or forests to make corn oil to make biodiesel. This is what California is subsidizing for diesel, and refineries are being converted to veggie oil processors, strictly due to mega-subsidies from California making that more profitable than fossil fuel diesel. The public does not grasp that ready-made dino diesel is hard to beat environmentally, because it was made eons ago. Just needs a little dusting and cleaning. Jet fuel for example almost goes straight from crude oil to the jet engine with very mild clean-up. You are going to very expensive-to-make bio-jet for what reason? (Politics)

 

Getting those grams means shifting tons of earth. The dug up amount to recovered target mineral is probably a whole lot better for a lithium mine.

That diesel was made at a time when the planet's climate was not supportive to human life styles, and a lot of other life forms. Putting the carbon back in the air is just going to bring those conditions back.

 

Like 3PriusMike we also got very similar numbers between our Model 3 and former Plug-in Prius.

But with plug-ins, Wh/mi or mi/kWh "efficiency" is step 1 of 2. Next to be determined is the percent of miles driven or kWh that is renewable.

We charge mostly from mid-morning to late afternoon when we would otherwise be exporting solar PV to the grid and CA ISO also shows very high renewable energy serving grid demand.

That gives most EVs a heavy advantage over our former fossil fuel uber-efficient Prius in our case and others who charge with renewable supply/demand management or just are on a grid with significant renewable inputs. Yes, not everyone can do the same, though such are neither edge cases.

 

:lol: Crude oil to jet turbine fuel with a very small clean up ..... I guess if you compare it to the Exon Valdez oil spill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill and that little one from the Deep Water Horizon oil rig shambles, it would only require a minor clean up to make usable fuels from crude oil. I'm surprised a lot more people didn't rush down to the shore line and scoop up a few drums to clean up for themselves and use it in their vehicles :lol:

As for leaving food crops to rot in the paddocks because the futures pricing couldn't cope with it hitting the market ..... why couldn't that be turned into bio fuel rather than ploughing it back into the ground?

T1 Terry

 

Found a decent article regarding recycling / ethics /manufacturing all tied together for Tesla's part.

https://electrek.co/2022/05/09/tesla-increase-battery-recycling-capacity-battery-packs/

Bottom line - things are getting better.
.

 

The first part is attack not addressing my post.

Certain foods can be converted to fuel such as oil seeds (soybean/canola/palm oil) or starchy corn and sugar cane. Other grains in excess you have to do what George Washington did near here: build yourself a whiskey distillery. I assure you the profit margin is better.

 

After I wrote my above post talking about how easy it is to make jet fuel from crude oil, I found Bill Gate's also discusses the jet fuel example:

 

Gates was just using jet fuel as an example to demonstrate the green premium concept for the economic costs of going zero carbon emission. Your point was that jet fuel was environmentally better.

Which is likely true when discussing rain forests cleared for biofuel crops. Not when the goal is zero greenhouse gas emissions. Now, sticking with fossil jet fuel maybe a good plan in the intern, because of that green premium. Focus on easier goals as general advancement makes green jet fuel easier to achieve. It's basically what we are doing now.

We don't pump jet fuel out of the ground though. We pump petroleum. What do we do with the sizeable portion that isn't jet fuel? Keep burning it? Pump it back underground? Any answer will have its own cost in terms of environment and economic.

The jet fuel example is doing the same thing as the OP article. It brings up the costs and harms of doing something new to address an issue while ignoring those costs for staying to the status quo.

 

Bill Gates example of the additional cost of zero emission Jet Fuel or maybe closer to carbon neutral is a good one. Using algae as an example, removes carbon from the air and releases oxygen, so the fuel base starts from a negative carbon generation point where fossil fuel does not ...... then the fact that jet fuel used in a gas turbine generator is 70% energy efficient where petrol or diesel in an internal combustion engine, even with today's technology, is around 30% at best for diesel and 25% at best for petrol (gas in the US) The use of Natural Gas (Methane) would be more efficient, no idea about the production of green methane because that is still in the early stages, but involves producing hydrogen from electrolysis of water or one of the other green methods rather than steam reformation of natural gas because the carbon monoxide processed through a catalytic converter produces more carbon dioxide to add to the carbon dioxide already generated by the steam reformation process and also requires even more rare earth mining that just adds to the problem.
That electricity and even hydrogen would need to be generated by green renewable sources to be practical, but that is something Australia is already researching.
Hydrogen can be transported by converting it to ammonia and then reversing the process to retrieve the hydrogen.
Hydrogen fuelling a jet turbine would produce water when it combines with oxygen from the air ..... a green waste product ......

There are always solutions, just the road blocks need to be knocked over first so the proper research and development can proceed .....

T1 Terry

 

You might want to cite a source as a 70% efficient, heat engine is unusual.

Bob Wilson

 

To answer the question:

All cars are bad for the environment. Broadly speaking, EVs are less bad than ICEs. It is therefore more ethical to purchase and use an EV than to purchase and use an ICE.