Is Hell Forever?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 04:31 PM) [snapback]400543[/snapback]</div>

They had the special about Jesus and his family bones being found yesterday and also Blackbeards pirate ship being found. Coincidence !!! I think NOT !!! Ramen !!! (FSM is trying to tell us something) :blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 4 2007, 10:13 PM) [snapback]400113[/snapback]</div>

That is exactly what your are doing..I suppose you can't see it though, so deep into it you are.

when i want fantasy, I go to Disneyland. Sorry they don't have one in Texas, it might help you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 06:31 PM) [snapback]400543[/snapback]</div>

I know, I know...I have read the book. I just got back from Borders, where I bought another copy.


As to the FSM, you have the quote wrong.


Tex Avery 1:42 –1:44 (FSMV)
As soon as He had spoken, immediately the volcano spew forth the beer, and he viewed the stripper factory.
And He saw him and sent him a beer at once, and said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone; but go your way, show yourself to the bartender, and offer for your beer those things which Moe commanded, as a testimony to them.â€

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 5 2007, 05:53 PM) [snapback]400632[/snapback]</div>

I was not quoting. Merely reciting an item of faith. Christianity offers you a harp and a cloud. The Church of the FSM offers you unlimited beer. I'd say it's a no-brainer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 09:07 PM) [snapback]400650[/snapback]</div>

I'm glad you finally found something you can believe in Daniel.

Sounds like heaven for you is an eternal beer party......

The highpoint of your existence?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 6 2007, 12:07 AM) [snapback]400650[/snapback]</div>

What, no sense of humor? Sheesh...

 

Well Daniel touché. As some tool mentioned “well saidâ€, I’d refer to your reply more as well written. There’s no doubt you are extremely well versed in many subjects and I don’t have the time to do the research to debate you on a literal bible quoting level. No religion is perfect and you’ve made some good points but in my opinions are wrong in others and I will leave it at that.

The biggest problem I have with you it that you are the ultimate hypocrite. You usually don’t voice your opinions as your beliefs you state them as facts. You spoke about Jesus as though you knew him personally then you quote some study about him being apocalyptic just because it fits your views when there are many others (yes made by experts) that state differently. Your all-knowing arrogance is insulting and uncalled for. You don’t believe in religion? Fine. You think everyone should be sterilized? Fine. Go ahead and chime in with your beliefs, no one cares but don’t insult the beliefs of others. That is why I call you a coward. I don’t care how many Purple Hearts (just an example and I mean no disrespect to the badge) you have or how many babies you’ve rescued from burning buildings. When you hide behind your computer screen in your basement insulting the faith of millions of people you ARE a coward.

Oh, and vibe.. sober up before you post something like that, I don’t even know how to respond to your second statement. You’re insulting me and agreeing with me at the same time :wacko:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 5 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]400685[/snapback]</div>

See? I make a joke and everyone takes it seriously.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 5 2007, 09:41 PM) [snapback]400745[/snapback]</div>

?????

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stealth @ Mar 5 2007, 09:52 PM) [snapback]400752[/snapback]</div>

That's an understatement. All religion is bunk.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stealth @ Mar 5 2007, 09:52 PM) [snapback]400752[/snapback]</div>

Oh, so people can excoriate my political ideas, but I cannot respond in kind when people believe pure hogwash about an imaginary guy in the sky who loves us so much he sends 99% of the world's population to hell for being born into the "wrong" religion (i.e. any religion other than that of the person making up the story)???

Why should religion get better treatment than politics? My beliefs and I have been insulted by religious fanatics all my life. So I guess if I call it like I see it, it's just giving them back a bit of their own.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 6 2007, 03:30 AM) [snapback]400762[/snapback]</div>

Okay...Daniel, did I ever insult you? Yet, you continue to say negative things about something I do believe in. You liken my beliefs, it having no intelligence. As if, because I made the voluntary decision to believe in Christ, I must be delusional, and about dumb as a rock.

Is that a fair thing to do, to someone you don't know, that has not put you down? I mean that in general; I am not saying specifically you have put me down in this thread.

I have, time and time again, been beaten down by the fundies, when I defend others to have the right to believe, or not, and to believe in what ever they want, even if it disagrees with me.


I try to exercise the very tolerance that you say others have not given you. If you are a man of values, and by that I mean, right from wrong, then you know that revenge does nothing but fill the world with negative vibes. Let the light of your views shine upon others; be good to one another.


And I figured you might be joking, and that is why I joked back...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stealth @ Mar 6 2007, 12:52 AM) [snapback]400752[/snapback]</div>

Did you get up this morning thinking you may not be remembered after all and you are all pissed off now? :lol:
Sure you don't know how to respond to my second sentence, because you can't see your own hypocrisy. Funny though, it's not like you responded to my first sentence either; it must have been very hard to comprehend that people might have other purposes to life other than hoping that they will be remembered when they die.
You don't seem to be able to see beyond your own hypocricy as you are hiding behind your own computer screen insulting and calling people names. You are beaming with tolerance, that's so Christian.
Don't worry though, I wasn't expecting any intelligent response from you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 5 2007, 10:57 PM) [snapback]400764[/snapback]</div>

Never mind that I was replying to the insulting comments of Stealth...

I did not insult you. I expressed my opinion of certain commonly-held irrational beliefs. Why should irrational beliefs be immune from criticism? If you find my criticism of your beliefs hurtful, then I think you are misreading my intentions.

Somehow, and I do not know how, one class of beliefs has been given special privilege in the social debate. People feel free to criticize political opinions, and this is as it should be. But once a belief has been awarded the title of "religion" (and this most often happens with totally irrational beliefs, which are supported by no evidence or observation or experiment or any of the other methods by which we reliably gain knowlegde of the world around us) then suddenly it cannot be criticised??? Why is that? Perhaps because these beliefs are so insupportable that they cannot stand up to criticism.

Well, this is a free country, and you are free to believe fairy tales. But don't expect people to go on treating those beliefs as though it were perfectly normal to believe things that have no sensible basis. If you think Hillary Clinton, or Jeb Bush, or Barak Obama, or Mystery Squid would be the best person to be the next president, people are going to call you on it and criticize your opinion. So why should it be any different if you believe there is an invisible man in the sky who reveals himself to a chosen few and hides from everyone else?

The power of the mass delusion we call religion is so great, that anyone who admits to not believing in an invisible man in the sky is treated as a second-class citizen. We are effectively barred from political office unless we lie about our beliefs, we are excoriated from pulpits and public platforms, merely because we do not believe in fairy tales. But we're supposed to keep silent and pretend that the emperor is not naked???

I respect you as a person, and more so for your humanist ethics. I respect all people ( a courtesy I seldom receive in return from the loudest proponents of religion, some of whom even accuse me of a murder committed more than 1,900 years before I was born.) But when I see bunk I'll call it bunk. And the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and that invisible man in the sky are all bunk. Religion is a multi-billion-dollar business that sells something that does not exist, and as such it is a scam. And considering the number of people who have been murdered in cold blood, in the name of religion, it is one of the most damaging and costly scams, if not the most, in human history.

Every person deserves respect. But irrational beliefs do not. And the time has come for rational people to stop being silent about them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 6 2007, 12:30 AM) [snapback]400762[/snapback]</div>

Some things people don't appreciate you joking with.

Lets joke about something precious to you and see if you enjoy the jest?

I won't get into details of your personal life as I don't know them, but you can let your imagination run wild as to what is precious to you..... I thinking on the lines of someone you have a close relationship with?

Its just bad class and tacky to insult something you don't know about "when what you do know", is that it is very real and precious for the one your directing the insult at?

When you do that, you are purposely stepping in thier heart. Because where your treasure is.. there is your heart.

If you "knew" anything it would be one thing.. but you don't....

You cannot "know" God is real, why I "know" he is.

I know he is real more than I know I am real... I know its hard to explain... but my awareness of my existence and the perception of my goings all blend together into a nothingness, meaningless, insignificant mess when compared to the moments of feeling his presence.

Just because you don't understand it.. theres no need to let its existence condemn you.

The Devil is the only one that is condemning you right now... God only convicts "for now".

The love of God does not judge you, but later the wrath of God will bring balance to this earth.

No for our sakes, but for your sakes, its disturbing to see you so recklessly go out of your way to rip apart something meaningful and precious to so many.

It rates on the same level as me killing a precious "cat" you have for the fun of it as it means nothing to me?

Don't you have a little more consideration for others than that?

For being someone that is so smart, will you allow yourself to also be so foolish to make bold statements about Jesus when you will be meeting him someday at the Great White Throne?

The only reason for discounting someones belief in a God is when you are sure they are off base and you are concerned for thier life... otherwise its really no bodies business.

Why is it so important to "you" to discount God and Jesus?... with your "intelligence" that you think you possess, do you have the ability to search your heart to answer that question?.. whats it matter to you?

Can you put your finger on "what drives you?", or what is the source of the compelling force that makes it your agenda to tear down Christianity?.......

You have no idea what drives you..... thats my point!... your blind and can't see the forces at work.... your easy prey and just a puppet and a spokesman for them as you don't even believe in the very forces that control your speech and thoughts.

The biggest trick of any CEO is to puff up the little guy and give him a title "with crappy pay of course" to get him to do what he wants to play off his pride and ego.

What is it your thinking of yourself when you discount God himself and all that he teaches mankind?
Some sense of power?... how about alieviates your fears to have to encounter him?
Only you can answer that question....but I really don't think you can, is my point?

If you can answer that question with 100% accuracy, either your a blind fool or your dead wrong.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 6 2007, 08:12 AM) [snapback]400826[/snapback]</div>

Wow!.. you finally said something that makes sense!

Your right.. this nonsense has gone on far too long and its totally rediculous!

More people need to put down thier foot on the neck of idiotic thoughts contrived of liberalism and squash the life out of it!

Thanks for the heads up!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 5 2007, 12:21 AM) [snapback]400145[/snapback]</div>

Philosophers of the world come up with crap..

I see who the real cognitive thinker is here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Mar 6 2007, 11:32 AM) [snapback]400946[/snapback]</div>

Even a third grader can tell you most of what they say doens't make sense...

They get so deep trying to impress someone that they stumble over thier own logic.

Thinking is easy if you have common sense that God gave you and the ability to tell right from wrong.

It gets hard when you are breaking rules and principles of common thought.

I love to think out of the box, but if I'm gonna think out of the box, it at least needs to be thought based on principles.. no jibberish.

You can tell me why gravity doesn't work all you want and give me totally logical sense for it, but if its not the truth, its just jibberish.

Its the thought of the liberals.. they pull a rabbit out of a hat as say.... "see it exists!"...and discount the trickery and illusion or deception that made it happen?

They believe what they want to believe and seek out teachers that will tell them what they want to hear.
The teachers become famous and the followers find contentment in thier delusion..... you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours kinds thing.

Its not hard at all when you can see.. its only hard to those that are blind.

(Prov 4:18 NKJV) But the path of the just is like the shining sun, That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
(Prov 4:19 NKJV) The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know what makes them stumble.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 6 2007, 07:24 AM) [snapback]400856[/snapback]</div>

Hey, religious people have been insulting me, ridiculing me, leveling preposterous criminal charges against me (most notably for a murder committed more than 1,950 years before I was born) and generally reviling me for not believing in their fairy tales.

I guess they can take a bit of their own back.

Sure I get offended when people make fun of things that are important to me. I am most offended by racial slurs and jokes that try to make prejudice and injustice sound funny. But that doesn't stop bigots (who are often religious) from making those jokes.

I deeply respect those religious people who are respectful towars other people. That includes you and TJ (just to mention the two most recent Christian posters to this thread) and a large number of my friends. But my respect for you as a person does not mean I have to allow bunk to pass without comment. Just as some open-minded Christians say "hate the sin but love the sinner," I can respect the person while I criticise the belief. I consider your beliefs nonsensical and illogical, just as you consider mine. But if my atheism can be a target for criticism, then your Christianity is likewise a legitimate subject for rational examination and dismissal.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Atheists have been reviled by Christians from the time when Paul discarded the teachings of Jesus and invented Christianity. Now atheists are beginning to talk back. The difference is, that I try to convert people by reason, rather than by torture, rape, and murder, as Christianity was spread from its Roman origins throughout the world. Is there a Christian land that came by its Christianity other than through torture and murder? I doubt it. My only weapons are my words.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 6 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]400992[/snapback]</div>

Having read that, and appreciating the shout out, I have to ask: Does two wrongs make a right?

I do not understand, an eye for an eye...never have.

Does insulting the beliefs of others, by calling them 'nonsensical and illogical', insulate you when you get attacked? Does it relieve you of the responsibility you have towards others, of causing no harm?

I for one, have never in these threads, called atheists anything. I have not put them down, nor have I tried to convert them.

It goes against the teachings of Christ, whom I follow. He would not put anyone down either.

=====

A man walked along the water, tossing stones into the water; some skipped, causing ripples, then entered the water, while others just plunked in, causing nothing but a momentary splash.

The result of both types of tosses? The rocks entered the water.

In other words, if the end result is to engage in conversation, why cause more ripples then needed, when the end result is the same?

To engage in an exchange of ideas.

 

I for one don't generally get involved. I realize that I am not going to "convert" anyone, nor is it my goal to do so. That said, when religion teaches things which I consider wrong, I am absolutely OK with disagreeing. The policies of the Catholic church regarding birth control, for example, are downright immoral in my opinion, as is the way that gays are treated by most of the more fundamentalist Christian groups in this country.

You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. That's why I'm glad that I live in the US.

Do not, however, get pissed off because we believe that your beliefs are a bunch of crap. You (I assume) believe that Athiests are going to endure an eternity of suffering because of their sins. You believe that we are inherently inferior because of our beliefs (even if you would never SAY such a thing, we are "sinners" in your eyes, which is most definitely a value judgement). Nothing that I could do - short of converting to YOUR set of beliefs - would convince you that I am worthy of acceptance by your God.

You tolerate us. You're polite to us. We could probably even be friends. But, at a fundamental level, you believe that Athiests live in sin. That's far, far worse than anything I could ever say to you.

(FYI, if you don't believe that Athiests go to Hell, disregard most of this post - note that most Christians do, however)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 7 2007, 01:48 AM) [snapback]401527[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hawkjm73 @ Apr 28 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]246992[/snapback]</div>

Short answer: we aren't. Even if you believe the Bible, we aren't remotely like God in anything but a superficial fashion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hawkjm73 @ Apr 28 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]246992[/snapback]</div>

Absolutely true. I have absolutely no way of disproving God. It is fundamentally impossible. I also have no way, at this present time, of disproving that there is a teapot in orbit around Saturn (our most powerful telescopes don't have nearly enough resolution). That doesn't mean that I believe in the teapot. Nor do I deny its existance. But in the absence of evidence of the teapot, I choose, as a pragmatic matter, not to believe.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hawkjm73 @ Apr 28 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]246992[/snapback]</div>

Quite true. There are an infinite number of things which we don't understand. We don't understand what it feels like to die. We don't understand how life began on Earth, beyond a few theories. We don't know if there is intelligent alien life. Hell, we can't even predict the weather accurately next Tuesday, let alone years in the future.

All we can say about such things is we don't know. Over time, perhaps our knowledge will grow. But there will still be an infinite number of things for us to discover. We won't have even made a dent. There are also an infinite number of incorrect theories. We can't spend time disproving them all - unfortunately, we have a very finite amount of time to work with. So we only look at the plausible theories - the ones supported by a solid foundation of what we do know. Along the way, we will miss a lot. We'll get a lot wrong. And we're never going to really understand how everything works. But that doesn't mean that the answer is God.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hawkjm73 @ Apr 28 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]246992[/snapback]</div>

Most people think that cellphones are rediculous. If we didn't understand that they are just technology, we would think they are magic. To most people, that's exactly what they are. They don't have the slightest clue how they actually work.

I'm a EE, so I understand a bit more. But I still don't know 80% of what makes a cellphone work. I do know the basics, though, enough to understand that the cellphone is not magic.

The point is, don't discount the people who really do understand this stuff. Just because I don't really understand how relativity works doesn't mean that there aren't some very smart people who do. We see the effects over and over again, from laboratory tests to laser ranging to the clock drift of the GPS satellites (yes, the clocks on the GPS satellites run "slow" because they are moving faster than the clocks on the ground).

Reproducable evidence is the difference between science and belief. It's not that I trust the people doing the experiments - I trust that, given enough time, mistake and fraud will be discovered. We cannot be 100% certain of anything, but the more tests that are done, the more papers that are written, and the more verifications that are performed, the greater our confidence becomes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hawkjm73 @ Apr 28 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]246992[/snapback]</div>

You were doing so well! I can choose to believe whatever story I want to believe. But you're implying that all stories have equal validity. I could believe that the Prius has an MSRP of $60,000 (US), but that is clearly wrong. I could believe that the world is flat (most of the world did at one point, and some still do!), but that's also clearly wrong. All beliefs do not have the same validity.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hawkjm73 @ Apr 28 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]246992[/snapback]</div>

I guess I fail to see why the Bible has more validity than - say - Greek Mythology. I don't want to predicate my judgements on the popularity of a particular system of beliefs. The fact is, while some would argue otherwise, there is remarkably little solid evidence that backs up the religous teachings of the Bible. The whole point of faith is that God doesn't provide us with the beef. The problem is, there's more than one theory! Maybe I should be Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu - what makes those religions so different?

In your mind, you divide religions into "those that are essentially the same as mine" and "those that I am an athiest with respect to". Athiesm is the absence of belief, and no Christian could plausibly argue that they "believe" in religions vastly different to theirs. You can't be both Christian and Hindu, so, whether you admit it or not, you believe that you are right and they are wrong. Note that this isn't a moral judgement - you may respect different beliefs, but you don't actually believe those ideas.

The funny thing is, Hindus do the same thing, only in reverse. They are right and you are wrong. Their beliefs about the validity of Christianity are roughly the same as mine. According to them, your God did not create our world.

You already understand how I perceive your religion. Just think about how you view a religion that is vastly different from your own. How can its followers belieive what they believe? How can they belieive so strongly when the evidence is so weak? Why are they so sure?

Why are you so sure?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 6 2007, 12:26 PM) [snapback]400992[/snapback]</div>

Common Daniel.. admit it.. your weak.. your like a bully thats no good without all his liberal friends backing him and stepping in for him.

You don't like it when you have to play defense?.... only offense is your game?

You seem to do just fine picking on others ideas..... yet if someone even mentions your cat or something precious to you, you can't take it? Do you hold your cat in higher esteem than someone's God they relate to and fellowship with on a daily basis?...

What kinda freak are you?

Please reasses your value system.

If you have alienated all your loved ones and friends except your cat.. that could be a sign!!!

If thats not the case.. just take whats yours like a man and don't cry too much, but rather reassess your stance.... you can't be perfect in everything... admit it!

 

:mellow: <snifffffffffffff> Ahhh smell the Hate, Bigotry & Anti-Religion ..............


I dont believe I have ever seen Daniel being humorous.. :huh:
He's always presented himself as being clear, concise & to the point on his beliefs.