Is Hell Forever?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 9 2006, 12:14 PM) [snapback]252169[/snapback]</div>

OK Daniel, you've spouted that garbage just one too many times on Priuschat for me to ignore. Jesus in NO WAY advocated absolute poverty. There are instances where he did tell people to sell everything they had, in order to inherit the kingdom, but that was because he saw that, in their personal case, their riches were a hindrance. Jesus personally lived a very simple life, owned nothing to speak of, but still lived a balanced life, enjoying good meals at other people's houses, dressed well/appropriately, and had money.
What Jesus DID try to emphasize was that materialism can be a trap, one that distracts us from the more important spiritual things:
Jesus said to his disciples: “How difficult a thing it will be for those with money to enter into the kingdom of God!†Jesus added: “It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.â€
You will notice that Jesus did NOT say that rich people won't get into the kingdom, just that it would be MUCH more difficult:
Mark 4:19 - "but the anxieties of this system of things and the deceptive power of riches and the desires for the rest of the things make inroads and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful"
1 Timothy 6:10 - "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains."
If none of Christ's disciple are supposed to have ANY money or material possessions, how could it be that at 1 Timothy 6:18 we are encouraged  "to work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be liberal, ready to share".
Yes, those who do have money are expected to be open-handed, using their money to help others and also to accomplish God's will.
Its all about balance. What do we consider to be first in our life? Are we "making sure of the more important things", as Paul says? I think your attitude is very UNBALANCED. All you're attempting to do is discredit EVERY Christian on here on one fell swoop because we aren't paupers, which is a very childish manuever. I try to live a very simple life, and deplore materialism. Yet, like Paul, and the other apostles, I work at a job to support myself. Paul recommended "that a person should eat food he himself earns." He also recommended that "the stealer should “steal no more†but “do hard work.â€

 

DOWN WITH DANIEL!!!

I say we put him in a pit and start tossing bibles at him!!!

:lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 9 2006, 03:39 PM) [snapback]252309[/snapback]</div>

Whatever MS was on...it is wearing off. Welcome back!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ May 9 2006, 04:15 PM) [snapback]252326[/snapback]</div>

Thanks!

Being cute and kind was just making me waaaay too sick! It just isn't me...

:lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2Hybrids @ May 9 2006, 10:34 AM) [snapback]252228[/snapback]</div>

Could be... but you cannot convince me with your supposition and skepticism of what I already know is reality and real life experiences... your too late!

I have experienced things in the spirit realm that are much much more real than anything in the physical.

If you play around in the spirit realm for long, you will see that its more real than the physical and much more impactful.

I can go on an awesome vacation, go to any place, and do anything and have a thrill of a time.... the memory will be there afterwards.
But when you experience a life changing experience in the spirit realm, it sticks with you like it happened yesterday and your changed forever.

Having just one of those experiences is life changing, but when you have had several over and over through the years, it makes it so real and so vivid that any skepticism is pure nonsense and a waste of brain power.

I totally respect your skepticism since you have have never experienced what I am talking about.. but I have absolutely no incentive for leading you astry or trying to convince you of anything that is not real.

You will just have to take my word for it..... The spirit realm is totally real..... I have never been to hell myself and don't care to check it out, but I have been other places of which I don't know where, but it was not in my body and it was a wonderful wonderful experience and I remember I was really let down to have to come back into my body and again feel the limitations of gravity, pain, heaviness and all the other things associated with living in this earth suit we call a body.

All I can do is be a witness of what I know.. I cannot be a witness of what I don't know.
But based on what I know.. I can assume that other things are real also that I have not yet experienced.

I admit, its hard to accept on faith alone.. its a gift to be able to do so.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 9 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]252334[/snapback]</div>

and neither is that avatar!!! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 9 2006, 12:39 PM) [snapback]252309[/snapback]</div>

Now we need to start throwing prosperity scriptures at him!

(3 John 1:2 KJV) Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

(Eccl 6:2 KJV) A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease.

(Prov 13:22 KJV) A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

(Deu 8:18 KJV) But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

There's a little taste..... There's alot more where that came from.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 10 2006, 12:25 AM) [snapback]252604[/snapback]</div>

AHA! So THAT explains why Bush has been fighting so vigorously to get rid of the estate tax! Now I understand.
Although, I think that they are glossing over the "good man" part of that proverb...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ May 9 2006, 11:24 AM) [snapback]252259[/snapback]</div>

Boy, oh, boy can you Bible-thumpers ever twist the words of the fellow you claim was god. You think that a camel going through the eye of a needle is merely "difficult"??????? Jesus spoke in poetry, and saying that it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god was a very poetic and creative way of saying "It ain't gonna happen, nohow!" As soon as you figure out how to get a camel through the eye of a needle I'll reconsider my position.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 9 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]252255[/snapback]</div>

Of course there's no evidence. I was pointing out the absurdity of Windstrings' statement that if there's no hell there can be no heaven either. Why can there not be one without the other? Lots of religions believe there is a heaven but no hell, and I bet there's a religion somewhere that believes there's a hell but no heaven. Since it's all nonsense, Windstrings' assertion was absurd.

What I believe is that the world around us really exists, and that the scientific method is an effective way of learning about it. The very fact that we are having this discussion, using computers and the internet, is evidence of that!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 10 2006, 09:56 PM) [snapback]253240[/snapback]</div>

fair enough, most certainly nothing wrong with that!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 10 2006, 06:56 PM) [snapback]253240[/snapback]</div>

Isn't it amuzing that you are open to a heaven you cannot see, but not a hell... why is that?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 10 2006, 09:56 PM) [snapback]253240[/snapback]</div>

No Daniel, it is YOU who are twisting the Bible. You are doing the VERY THING that you, and many other people condemn some Christians for: taking ONE VERSE, and building a doctrine around it. We supplied you with 5-10 other verses, which you PREFER to discard in preference for YOUR interpretation of the scriptures. You need to allow the scriptures to interpret themselves, and not force a meaning you want.
Jesus did NOT speak in poetry, but here he was clearly using hyperbole to illustrate that just as a literal camel cannot go through the eye of an actual sewing needle, it is impossible for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom if he continues to cling to his riches and does not put God first in his life.
1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Give orders to those who are rich in the present system of things not to be high-minded, and to rest their hope, not on uncertain riches, but on God, who furnishes us all things richly for our enjoyment; to work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be liberal, ready to share, safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, in order that they may get a firm hold on the real life."
Its all a matter of BALANCE. A person CAN be both rich and an accepted worshipper of God, but it is MUCH harder to maintain your spiritual balance. It IS impossible for any rich person to get into the Kingdom IF he has a greater love for his possessions than for spiritual things.
The fact is that many rich persons did become disciples of Jesus:
Matthew 27:57 - Now as it was late in the afternoon, there came a rich man of Arimathe′a, named Joseph, who had also himself become a disciple of Jesus
Luke 19:2 - Now here there was a man called by the name Zacchae′us; and he was a chief tax collector, and he was rich.
There's no mention that Jesus told either of them that they had to sell everything they had.

Ummmm, no. That is the Trinity Doctrine which states that Christ was God come in the flesh. It was written into Catholic theology ~300 years after Christ, after many debates, but has no basis in the Bible. When the Bible calls him the "son of God" and the "firstborn of creation", I believe it. But, that's a whole 'nother discussion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ May 11 2006, 08:48 AM) [snapback]253495[/snapback]</div>

Not speak in poetry??? The greatest attribute of that whole book is its poetry. And as for the camel thing, the part you yourself put in italics is your interpretation. It's your mental gymnastics to explain why you can ignore the whole passage.

The entire sermon on the mount was an explicit diatribe against wealth and power. You are very fortunate there is no god, because if there was, and if Jesus was him, you and I would both be headed for that lake of fire.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 10 2006, 08:16 PM) [snapback]253301[/snapback]</div>

I do not believe in either heaven or hell. I merely assert that you are being illogical when you insist that the two are linked so that there must be both or neither.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 11 2006, 01:39 PM) [snapback]253702[/snapback]</div>

Some of the most powerful things I have witnessed in my life that has increased my faith was the positive identification of real demons and demonic activity.... when I see that, it only makes God even more real.

When you see a demon manifest and also see that inspite of all efforts and ritualistic nonsense.. that only the name of Jesus spoken with authority and conviction seems to have an absolute effect on them.
They can play games with other names.. but that are bound by the authority of that name to obey it. I don't know what happens in the spirit realm if they attempt to disobey, but I think one clue is when Jesus addressed the demoniac and the demons spoke out in fear that he not cast them into the pit before thier time.

I have seen a little 6 year old girl squirm on the ground and wriggle like a snake and hiss and snarl and then saw 6 big burly preachers hold her down just to see her "throw" them into the air all at once. It was very obvious there was supernatural power involved.
But only the name of Jesus released her and she instantly changed from a contorted growling face to a crying little girl asking for her mommy.

Until you see some of that, its hard to believe many things by faith alone. The disciples also got to see such things and many more.
but in these last days there will be a revival that will supercede the acts of the apostles because Jesus promised it so.

I am excited about these hideous times we live in, only because as sin abounds grace will abound the more and we will see the supernatural increase on both sides... light and dark.

The dark will continue to counterfiet the light and the dark will be mistaken for the light by those who cannot see light. Its terrible to be blind.
When someone is blind they don't know at what they stumble at or upon.

I fear there will be perilous times before the revival comes....

We all saw a tiny taste in 9-11. We went from an aetheist nation who played church to one that spoke about God in most every conversation and carried Flags on most cars proclaiming "in God we trust".

(Hosea 5:15 KJV) I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

(Prov 1:28 KJV) Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

(Prov 1:29 KJV) For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
(Prov 1:30 KJV) They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
(Prov 1:31 KJV) Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
(Prov 1:32 KJV) For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

We are headed for exciting times.. it will be times when many will turn to God and many more will curse God.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 12 2006, 01:34 AM) [snapback]253966[/snapback]</div>

Damn....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 12 2006, 01:34 AM) [snapback]253966[/snapback]</div>

Windstrings, they are looking for new ideas for X-Files. You should definitely submit yours.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maggieddd @ May 12 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]254413[/snapback]</div>

NOt an idea.. I actually witnessed that.. I've witnessed many deliverances.. but that one stands out the most.

 

Heaven is now, Hell is not knowing it, or at least putting up with Windstrings.