Is Hell Forever?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ Apr 30 2006, 09:23 PM) [snapback]247786[/snapback]</div>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I love it! I probably won't join (on account of the meatballs) but perhaps I could become a "frequent friend."

 

First of all, the word "Hell" isn't in the Bible. It is simply an english word that *some* Bible translators, who allowed their personal beliefs to color their work, CHOSE to use when translating the original Hebrew (Sheol) or Greek (Hades or Gehenna) words. A proper understanding therefore of these scriptures can only be had by researching the meanings of the original words. I do not profess to be an ancient Hebrew or Greek linguist, and keep in mind these are DEAD languages. No one today speaks the original dialects, so the meaning of most words has change over time. In a previous post I stated:

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.â€â€”The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.
How can you torment someone who is unconscious? Ecclisiastes 9:5,10 - "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going".
Why would God continue to punish someone whose sins had been paid for?:
Romans 6:7,23 - "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin. For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord".

There are many problems with trying to interpret Revelation 20 as being a literal place of eternal hellfire:
1) The Devil is a spirit creature, therefore not affected by physical things like fire. How would that be a torment for him?
2) As someone else mentioned, how much sense does it make for Hell, supposedly a place of fire, to be thrown into a Lake of Fire?
3) Also, if you will notice, all the dead people were emptied out of Hades (Hell) before it was thrown into the Lake of Fire.
4) The same scripture says that death was cast into the Lake of Fire. Death is a condition, not a person or thing. How can you throw a condition into a Lake of Fire?
5) If you read verse 14 carefully, you will notice that it says "This means the second death, the lake of fire". So the Lake of Fire MEANS or REPRESENTS something else, the Second Death, a death from which there is never any hope of a resurrection. What God is here trying to tell us is that there will no longer be any death, dying, or graves under his Kingdom:
Revelation 21:4 - "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away".
So the Devil’s being “tormented†there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment†(from the Greek ba′sanos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 30 2006, 10:07 AM) [snapback]247531[/snapback]</div>

And so it shall be:
Revelation 17:1 - “Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.â€
Revelation 18:5 - "For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind"
Revelation 17:4 - "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and was adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls and had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her fornication. And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.†And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."
Revelation 18:23,24 - "by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled. Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth".
Revelation 17:16,17 - "And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."
Revelation 18:4 - "And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues".
Revelation 18:21 - "And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again".
Yes, false religion's bloodguiltiness has not escaped God's notice, for his name is the one that has been slandered, as all her atrocities were committed "in his name". For this, the "ten horns" (all the governments) give their authority to the wild beast (United Nations) to complete destroy her. As depicted in Revelation, this action will happen so swiftly that no one will see it coming.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 1 2006, 11:47 AM) [snapback]247954[/snapback]</div>

I don't eat much meat myself, and I actually haven't had meatballs since joining the CotFSM - I usually just take a double helping of noodles for communion in pennance. I'm sure noone would argue that alcoholics cannot be Catholic if they choose not to drink the sacramental wine - so you would be most welcome to join us.


I'll remove this bit if the thread starter asks:
Concerning the concept of Heaven and Hell, I should mention that in the CotFSM, heaven has a stripper factory and a beer volcano. Due to an incident with the tablets, we only have 8 "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" which makes getting into heaven pretty darned easy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ May 1 2006, 11:59 AM) [snapback]248075[/snapback]</div>

Just as the UU has many people who attend regularly but never sign the membership book because they don't like the ritual portion of the services, I am uncomfortable about the meatballs. That does not prevent me from admiring pastafarianism.

 

Yea.. regardless of what they say.... its our selfish human nature that seeks to save itself at all costs.

I too used to be an arrogant "sometimes still am!" self serving "normal" human being with a big hole in my heart.... the only thing that really drove me to God was the haunting awareness that if I died..what would happen to me for eternity?

Even though it makes no sense.. "to live for today for tomorrow we Die" mentality... still, if all the lacivious pleasures we indulge in that aleinates from from God, too would be a total waste (as if they never happened) if there was no after-life.. so why take the chance? What is the profit?

Besides.. knowing God has many rewards in this life as well as the life to come....
Yea.. I"m being selfish still

 

I've been touched by His Noodly Appendage! RAmen!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 2 2006, 05:39 PM) [snapback]248706[/snapback]</div>

The meaning of "Selfish", as you present it, is responsible, more than any other factor, for the arrested moral development of mankind! You use the word "selfish" as a synonym for evil. The definition of selfish is: "acting for or thinking of ones's own self interest....".

Seems to me that we mortals have two possible conditions....dead, or alive. So, if it is considered arrogant to act rationally in one's own self-interest, who will act for you. Try to drive as if there are no other drivers on the road. Stop feeding yourself for, say, 6 months. If you were stranded on a deserted island, with only "Wilson"* for company, I'm guessing that "selfishness", applied rationally, would be more than just a luxury for survival.

Point is, the term "selfish" should not be interpreted as a moral evaluation. It does not tell us whether concern for one's own self-interest is good or evil. It does not tell us what constitutes a man's actual interests. Rather, ethics is the proper means for evaluating good vs. bad. Ethics starts with the fundamental, crucial principle; the principle of "voluntary action" vs. coercion or compulsion....i.e., freedom.

IMHO, genuflecting to the oppression (comands) of a dictator (or a god) means giving up your freedom to act in your own rational self-interest! Slavery takes many forms, and is not always recognised for what it really is.

*from the Tom Hanks movie.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Denny_A @ May 5 2006, 06:27 AM) [snapback]250167[/snapback]</div>

I think your starting to strike the heart of what I'm saying.... selfish means to survive by means of your own understanding. Selfishness does not use faith.. thats why its bad. Only acts of faith are rewarded and can act on love because love works through faith.

Telling the truth "when it appears it will hurt you" takes faith. Loving when it appears that only takes energy from you takes faith. Careing takes faith because it takes away from yourself and you need to somehow know that in the long run, its best for you to give and to care.

Lust takes and draws energy from others to oneself.
Love gives and gives energy to others without interest in return.

Lust is the mode when you supply of energy is limited as a mortal.
Love is your mode when you are tapped into a higher power that replenishes your energy as you give it out.

Lust is connected horizontally to the world around you for your input, intake of energy, and encouragement and insight to live.
Love is connected vertically to a higher power from above so that you recieve insight, encouragement, and power to live without evidence of how its happening around you.

People that depend on lust to live are dead and are like parasites that have to draw from the "life"of others to get by.
People that depend on love to live are alive and are like beacons dynamos of energy and life that emit and give life from within without having to be fed with natural resources to maintain thier glow.

Life and death...... we have alot of walking dead men, with a life sentence upon them without parole unless something intervenes, they are walking dead men just waiting to to be excecuted.

Why not be alive instead?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 29 2006, 08:00 PM) [snapback]247400[/snapback]</div>

When the prodical son lost his inheritance.. if he had not returned, he would have gotten nothing.. even though is Father still loved him.
It about relationship.... because you were born on the planet does not make you a child of God.
You keep wanting to get around the sin issue... you want your inheritance but still go your own way and disregard the rules and boundaries of your Fathers house.
Not fair is it?.... who said it was supposed to be?
When the bank robber gets arrested.. he thinks its not fair that he got caught and put in jail.... at the same time the people he stole from thinks its not fair he took thier money without working for it.
Fair is a very subjective term and God never claimed to be fair in mans eyes... but all his ways are just.
Your right, He gets to decide whats just and true and righteous.

And what he decides works in harmony with all of the rest of creation.
The devil and his children are trying to disprove his justice so they too can be counted as righteous and not condemned to eternal fires.
Why doesn't the devil repent and see the error of his ways?... good question... There is no plan of salvation for him either... I guess thats not fair either?...

(Prov 13:22 KJV) A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.


I guess thats not fair to the sinner, but thats the way it is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 2 2006, 02:39 PM) [snapback]248706[/snapback]</div>

Ah, Coersion through Hell. The great motivator.

I prefer humanism myself. Geo, nice TJ quotes by the way. Where's that guy today? We need more like 'em. Of course, Tom was a UU. Appearently, he once remarked "within 50 years, every thinking young man in this country will be a Unitarian". Well, he wasn't perfect. Too bad he wasn't right.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ May 8 2006, 03:40 PM) [snapback]251758[/snapback]</div>

I'm thankful for it too.... without that motivator.. I could have missed it.

 

next topic: do bible thumping topics go on forever?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ May 8 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]251847[/snapback]</div>

Apparently, they do- and that is the true meaning of "hell."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ May 8 2006, 06:07 PM) [snapback]251847[/snapback]</div>

Bible Thumping eh?...... thats ok.... you want proof by any means other than the bible is sounds like?

go kill yourself! :lol:

If hell doesn't exist.. you've lost nothing because heaven doesn't exist either.... so whats your reason to live?

Maybe you aren't ready to find out for sure just yet eh?


Its funny.. everyone wants to go to heaven... just not today

And so many don't believe in Hell, but don't want to go there to prove it either.

Hell is not knowing God.... and a firey hell is not knowing him forever.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 9 2006, 12:08 AM) [snapback]251969[/snapback]</div>

Even in jest, I think that goes beyond bounds of appropriateness.
Maybe I am a bit sensitive as a friend's wife jumped off of a bridge a few weeks ago.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 8 2006, 09:08 PM) [snapback]251969[/snapback]</div>

Thank you Windstrings. This is a perfect example of the flawed logic of the christian evangelist: You present two possibilities, and you assert that the truth must be one or the other, ignoring the possibility that something entirely different may be true.

The classic example is the truly insulting argument presented by C.S. Lewis (though I don't think he originated it) that if you believe in the christian god and christianity turns out to be wrong, you have lost nothing; whereas in fact if you are a christian and Islam turns out to be right you go to hell.

In your argument above, you assert that a person who does not believe in [heaven and] hell has no reason to live and nothing to lose by killing himself. But if the hindus or the buddhists are right, then a person who kills himself just has to start all over again. I believe that there is nothing after death, so I'd rather go on living for a while longer.

You also assert (with no basis in evidence) that if hell does not exist then heaven does not either. The Seventh Day Adventists disagree with you on that point.

As you point out, everyone (at least all christians) want to go to heaven, just not today. The fact that christians do not all seek immediate martyrdom, in order to go immediately to heaven, suggests to me that most or all of them are really atheists, or at least agnostics, at heart. They insist they believe in Jesus, but they don't believe sufficiently to actually do what he told people to do: give away all their wealth and property, quit their jobs, trust in god to protect and provide for them, and (hardest of all) to love those that harm or threaten them. St. Francis of Assisi said that he refused to have possessions because he would have to defend them with violence, which would be anathema to his beliefs. He was a rare exception. Most self-styled christians cling fiercely to their possessions and either are willing to use deadly force themselves to defend their property, or are intensely grateful to Schmika and his cohorts for being ready to do it for them. I don't think a person can truly be a christian and own a luxury car like the Prius. It should not be difficult to follow the example of Francis if one really and truly believed that heaven would be their reward. It's only we atheists, and our agnostic cousins, who have good reason to hold onto a nest egg for hard times.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 9 2006, 07:48 AM) [snapback]252113[/snapback]</div>

You know I would feel very bad is someone actually killed themselves based on a foolish jest on my part.

And surely you understand thats what it was to get across a point!

But it is something to think about, and that was it intention.

If hell is nonexistent and so is heaven, then we are non existent too.

If you want to take what I say as literal and call me a heartless idiot, that ok... doesn't really size up my character quite right... but not too far off.

Sometimes people have to get hit with extremes before they can see the point.

You guys are no longer seeking knowledge and enlightenment, but are merely in a sparring match to defend your stance.

You will think what you will.. if you can't see my heart, I'm not surprised... so is so much else you cannot see to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 9 2006, 01:13 PM) [snapback]252214[/snapback]</div>

Or maybe it is you who no longer seeks enlightenment - but defending your stance.

So, any of us who aren't cult members are ignorant and in the dark?... my stance is, I believe the opposite to be true.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ May 9 2006, 01:13 PM) [snapback]252214[/snapback]</div>

the intolerance, hatred, and fascination with eliminating those of other kin you have showed on this board makes it really hard to believe you have a heart.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 9 2006, 12:14 PM) [snapback]252169[/snapback]</div>

:lol: oh, that was a good one... If anyone coughed up what YOU would like to believe is "evidence", we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? Probably one of the MOST ridiculous statements I've ever read on this board... asking for "evidence" pointing to the existence of heaven/hell...