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Is Hell Forever?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Wildkow, Apr 28, 2006.

?

Do you believe the Bible teachs that the punishment for unbelievers is eternal torment in hell?

  1. Yes

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%

  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    33.3%

  3. Something different.

    6 vote(s)
    50.0%
Page 2 of 16
  1. huskers

    huskers Senior Member

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    Hell is filling up your gas tank for $100 bucks or so...Heaven is driving a Prius so you don't have to do that!!! :p
     
    #21 huskers, Apr 29, 2006
  2. Wildkow

    Wildkow New Member

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    OK I tried writing something myself but this was way better. Even though his emphasis is on the word forever and not the eternal torment in hell theme that this topic addresses he still includes it in his article. . .

    How Long Is Forever?

    Does It Always Mean Eternity?

    Rober L. Odom

    The town had been stirred by the sermon preached the night before on the subject of hell. Now, on the following day, a small group had gathered to listen to a neighborhood argument over the matter.
    "But doesn't Revelation 20:9 say that 'fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them'?" asked George Brewster, as he argued with Joseph Blevins.
    "Yes," retorted Joe, "but doesn't the tenth verse of that same chapter of Revelation say that 'the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever'?"
    And so they argued, and neither of them knew the way out of the dilemma.
    There are expressions in the Bible, it can not be denied, that puzzle and perplex, and at times even appear to contradict each other. Of course, the Holy Scriptures could not be relied upon if they should teach one thing in one place and the contrary in another. What shall we do in this case?
    In His word God has spoken to us in human speech. Instead of giving the Written Word to us in the language that we speak today, He gave it in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, tongues no longer spoken among men and seldom used among us except in special fields of study. Over a period of nearly 1,600 years, from Moses to John the apostle, holy men of God were inspired to pen the Sacred Writings in those ancient tongues. And that we might have them to read today, learned men have translated the Holy Scriptures into the English language. The Authorized (King James') Version is the most widely used Bible text among English-speaking peoples. This translation was made in A.D. 1611, over 300 years ago. As we read it, we see that its beautiful English is very different from that which we use today. It is an example of how a language can change in the course of the centuries.
    In a few instances it has been very difficult for the translators to find words and phrases in English that exactly express the meaning of the original words of the Bible text. There are a few places in the Bible where the original wording has not been accurately translated, as we have noted in the case of tartaroo, the Greek verb used in 2 Peter 2:4. But taken as a whole, the Authorized Version of the Good Book is a very dependable translation.

    Words Sometimes Change in Meaning

    Some English words used in the Bible do not now have the same meaning that they had when the translation was made in 1611. For example, the word "let" is generally used today to mean "to permit, to allow," whereas 300 years ago it commonly meant "to hinder." And the term "quick" meant "alive, living," back there, while now it is more frequently used to mean "sudden, fast, and rapid." The word "conversation" then referred to the whole conduct of life, but now it is mostly limited to talk.
    Therefore, instead of allowing ourselves to become either discouraged or led to hasty conclusions in the study of difficult Bible subjects, we need to dig more deeply into the Sacred Word and to pray more earnestly for divine enlightenment concerning it. The safest rule to follow when in doubt, is to seek the meaning of terms as they are used by the Scriptures themselves, instead of depending solely on encyclopedias and dictionaries, which generally give the meaning of terms according to the best modern usage. Do not take a single instance as the basis for important conclusions, but gather a number of them from various places in the Sacred Writings. If these instances agree with each other and with the teachings of the Scriptures in general on the subject, then there is safety in stating what a word or a phrase means.
    Now let us take the expression "for ever," and apply this rule to the study of it.
    When Moses gave Israel the law regarding the relation of the master to his manservant, it was stipulated that the servant could not be held in servitude more than six years without his consent. If at the end of the six-year period the servant should desire to continue in the service of his master, it would be necessary for them to fulfill the following requirement of the Mosaic law: "Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever."[1] How long does "for ever" mean here? It evidently means as long as both parties should remain alive. Else, how could a living servant serve a dead master? Or how could a dead servant serve a living master? This law was given to the Hebrew commonwealth more than 14 centuries before the birth of Christ. Surely the masters and servants who entered into such agreements that long ago are not now fulfilling them.


    Naaman's Leprosy

    When Naaman, the Syrian leper, had been healed, he desired to give to Elisha a costly gift as a token of his appreciation of the prophet's kindness. Elisha refused to accept pay for what God had done for Naaman. But his covetous servant, Gehazi, slipped away from the house after the man had gone, and overtaking him on the way, obtained the gift by telling him a lie. Returning to Elisha after hiding the present, Gehazi lied to the prophet, saying that he had been nowhere. Thereupon the seer reproved the wicked servant, and added: "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out of his presence a leper as white as snow."[2] This took place nearly 900 years before Christ. Is Gehazi a leper today? The only reasonable meaning that "for ever" can have here is that Gehazi would be a leper until death.


    The Promise to David

    David, in delivering his charge to Israel and to Solomon, declared: "Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever."[3] David's death is recorded, and it is expressly stated that "the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years."[4] Peter, on the day of Pentecost, said: "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. . . . For David is not ascended into the heavens."[5] Paul remarks that David "fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption."[6] How long, then, did God mean that David should reign when He said that this king would rule over Israel "for ever"? He meant that David should be king over that people as long as he should live. And it was so, for he reigned over them 40 years, that is, until he died.
    Of Aaron's separation to the priesthood, it was written "that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever, to burn incense before the Lord, to minister unto Him, and to bless in His name for ever."[7] Aaron died on Mount Hor about 1400 B.C.[8] He "died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the first day of the fifth month. And Aaron was an hundred and twenty and three years old when he died in Mount Hor."[9] The sanctuary services of the Jews were discontinued when the temple was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70. How long does it mean when God says that Aaron and his sons should serve Him "for ever" in the sanctuary service? The tabernacle service did not begin until the "second year" after the Exodus.[10] Aaron's consecration as high priest is recorded in Leviticus 8. Aaron, therefore, possibly served 39 years in his work as high priest. Yet he was consecrated to that work "for ever"! That is, he was to serve as priest as long as he should live.


    The Case of the House

    In ancient times the buyer of a house within a walled city was not permitted by law to have a clear title to the property until one year had elapsed after the sale was made. During the year the seller could present the purchase price to the buyer and demand the return of the house. But if the seller should fail to do this ere the 12 months should expire, the buyer would have the house with a clear title. The law said: "Then the house that is in the walled city shall be established for ever to him that bought it throughout his generations."[11]
    How long was the title good? Obviously as long as the buyer should keep the property. There was no law forbidding him to sell it to another party. And could he still own the house if it should be burned up or destroyed? Would it still be his after he should die? This law was issued about 1,400 years before Christ was born. Are those houses standing yet? The meaning of "for ever" in this case is that the buyer would have a good title to the house for himself and his heirs against the world as long as the property should stand and as long as they should desire to keep it.
    A remarkable use of the term "for ever" is found in the Book of Jonah. "Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."[12] Jesus confirmed the accuracy of this statement.[13] But when Jonah described the experience that he had in the fish, he said: "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever; yet has Thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God."[14] How could Jonah be in that condition "for ever" and tell the truth when he said, "Yet Thou hast brought me up"? In this case "for ever" means as long as Jonah was inside the fish, which was three days and three nights. As long as he was confined there, that was the miserable condition in which he lived.


    Our Conclusion

    Having carefully considered these passages, we conclude that the term "for ever" as used in the Holy Scriptures denotes continuity (without a break) of action, being, or state of being. It may mean either a long or a short period of time, either definite or indefinite. The length of time involved depends on the nature of the person or thing to which the word is applied. When we read of God that "His mercy endureth for ever,"[15] it means that as long as God shall exist, His mercy will exist. Because He is eternal in His nature, His attributes are eternal also.
    But when the word "for ever" is applied to things of this world, it can mean only as long as they endure. Because the righteous will be given eternal life, an immortal nature, many things spoken of their future existence as lasting "for ever" mean for eternity, for the expression "for ever" means as long as a thing shall exist. Many Bible scholars have given the original Hebrew and Greek words translated as "for ever" their more precise meaning, which is "age-lasting."
    Our English word "always" has a similar meaning. It may mean eternity or it may denote a short period of time. When a person says, "I have always lived in New York City," he does not mean that he has lived there during all the eternity of the past, but that during all his past life he has lived there, which may be only 20 years, depending on his age at the time. When a young man promises his bride that he will always love her and cherish her, he means that he will do that as long as they both are alive. But when we say, "God has always existed," we mean that He has lived during all the eternity of the past. Because His nature is eternal, by reason of the fact that He is immortal, He has existence without end.
    Revelation 20:10 does not say, "And shall be tormented for eternity, for ever and ever." If the word "eternity" had been used in the text, there could be no question about the length of time denoted. But the passage really says, "And shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Thus it is a matter of days and nights, and not eternity. The suffering of some sinners in the lake of fire undoubtedly will last over a period of many days and nights. Every man will be rewarded "according as his work shall be."[16] Therefore, some will suffer longer than others, for some have been more wicked than others. Prior to his dying the second death[17] in the lake of fire, each sinner will suffer the torment proportionate to his guilt. This being so, the devil certainly will suffer long after all other sinners shall have expired in the flames, because he is the author and instigator of all evil.


    "Everlasting Punishment"

    Jesus said of sinners in the judgment, that "these shall go away into everlasting punishment."[18] Some have interpreted this to mean eternal torment. But this passage does not speak of everlasting punishing; it speaks of "everlasting punishmen." "The wages of sin is death,"[19] says Paul. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die,"[20] says Ezekiel. That means that the sinner will suffer everlasting death, from which there will be no recovery whatever. No resurrection from the second death is promised to any one.
    Paul makes clear what is meant by everlasting punishment when he says that "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."[21] The everlasting punishment to be meted out to the ungodly will be eternal destruction.
    Some have inquired about the "everlasting fire" spoken of in Matthew 25:41. This means a fire that will constantly burn until it shall consume everything upon which it feeds, and none shall be able to hinder its destructive work until it is finished. Sodom and Gomorrah, the wicked Canaanite cities that were destroyed nearly 1,900 years before Christ, "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."[22] And Peter declares that God turning "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly."[23]
    The annihilation of those cities is an example of the fate-eternal destruction by fire-that awaits those who shall be turned to ashes in the lake of fire.
    How Long is Forever?

    ________

    [1]. Exodus 21:1-6
    [2]. 2 Kings 5:27
    [3]. 1 Chronicles 28:4
    [4]. 1 Kings 2:10, 11; 1 Chronicles 29:27, 28
    [5]. Acts 2:29, 34
    [6]. Acts 13:36
    [7]. 1 Chronicles 23:13
    [8]. Numbers 20:28, 29
    [9]. Numbers 33:38, 39
    [10]. Exodus 40:17
    [11]. Leviticus 25:29, 30
    [12]. Jonah 1:17
    [13]. Matthew 12:40
    [14]. Jonah 2:1, 2, 6
    [15]. Psalm 106:1; 107:1
    [16]. Revelation 22:12; 20:12, 13; Romans 2:6; Matthew 16:27
    [17]. Revelation 21:8
    [18]. Matthew 25:46
    [19]. Romans 6:23
    [20]. Ezekiel 18:4, 20
    [21]. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
    [22]. Jude 7
    [23]. 2 Peter 2:6.
     
    #22 Wildkow, Apr 29, 2006
  3. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    I read this in the Huffington Post:

    Pretty much on the mark.
     
    #23 IsrAmeriPrius, Apr 29, 2006
  4. Wildkow

    Wildkow New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 29 2006, 02:56 PM) [snapback]247290[/snapback]</div>
    Kinda of a narrow view and hardly anything to do with the subject of this topic. But thanks for your input. :rolleyes:

    Wildkow
     
    #24 Wildkow, Apr 29, 2006
  5. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 28 2006, 07:07 AM) [snapback]246611[/snapback]</div>
    Your answer would be as relevant as anyone else's, because the poll did not ask whether you believe hell is forever, it asks whether you believe that the Bible teaches that hell is forever. You can have an opinion on what the Bible says without necessarily believing that what the Bible says is true.

    Here is what the hellfire fundies' assertion boils down to

    God so loved mankind ... that he will condemn to eternal, infinite torture anyone who, upon honest, consciencious consideration, does not believe in him.

    The problem with using the Bible as a reference, is that it contains so many contradictory statements that you can prove both sides of any question, depending on which verses you cite out of context. On the question of hell, you have Bible literalists on both sides: The Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the literal truth of the Bible, and do not believe in hell; the Pentacostalists are literalists who do.

    The answer is that the Bible says there is a hell, and it says there is not a hell. Take your pick. Or do as I do and read the Bible as an anthology of fiction and poetry by diverse authors with different beliefs.
     
    #25 daniel, Apr 29, 2006
  6. Wildkow

    Wildkow New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 29 2006, 08:00 PM) [snapback]247400[/snapback]</div>
    Well, it is not what my assertion boils down to and considering the quote above sounds like that is exactly what you are doing. That is taking Biblical statements/verses out of context or trying to prove a doctrine relying on only one verse or the best verse that suits your point of view. Usually not a good thing to do. <_< :lol:

    The Bible does nothing of the kind it says there is a Hell, period, it doesn't fit your vision of Hell (eternal torment from a God that delights in punishment) but a Hell nontheless which is temporary, made for the just punishment of all sinners and unbelievers. Don't get me wrong now (come on I know you want to mis-quote me with a dose of mock outrage) but if you are a moral person but an unbeliever standing before the judgement bar at the end of time I believe it will go something like this. . .

    Jesus: Daniel do you believe and have faith that I am the Creator God and only through me do you have everlasting life?

    Daniel: No I do not believe.

    Jesus: Very well Daniel is that your "Final Answer"?

    Daniel: Yes, that is my final answer.

    At that moment Daniel's eye is opened and he sees that all that God has done is Just and Righteous. Daniel also sees that he has forfeited life eternal and the thought is unbearable he gnashes his teeth and cries out that Jesus Christ is Lord. . . Phi 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. and Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.

    Soon after he descends to Hell but being a mostly moral man his punishment lasts but a short while er. . . well except for that one sin enumerated at the every end of Matt 5:22. :( He'll probably have to stay a little longer. :angry:

    Wildkow

    p.s. OK all you non-believers your turn just remember my love for you is disinterested (based on nothing but that my Lord loved me) and I did use a bit of humor in this not so humorus scenario but there is hope still; don't forget. . .
    The "Theft on the Cross" (just don't put it off that long) and Rev 20:14 And death and Hades )Hell) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. So that if you really are that retched of a person there will be an end to Hell, and thats the truth. YMMV
     
    #26 Wildkow, Apr 30, 2006
  7. 2Hybrids

    2Hybrids New Member

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    I put the bible on the shelf in between the Prophecies of Nostradamus and Roswell - The Conspiracy.

    Yeah, when I was a cult member a long time ago, I read that thing inside and out. After clearing the fog from my eyes, I began to realize this God I was guilted / brainwashed into worshipping condones murder, genocide, slavery, ...etc. It reeked of hypocracy and contradiction.

    what a wonderful God. <_<

    Hell? Why be concerned?...if you are a good person on this earth, hell shouldn't be an issue. Hell only remains in the minds of people who are fighting their conscience.

    Here is some food for thought for the sheep; If, you were to travel back in time in your time machine, carrying with you some medicinal supplies, laptop computer, weapons, etc.,..to a time where humans wore sandals and bedsheets,.....what would they call you???

    How would your appearance be interpreted when you:

    - heal the sick
    - bring someone back to life
    - turn water into wine
    - walk on water
    - talk into your hands (radio / prayer)

    We have the tech now to do this stuff...so why is it so amazing?

    Better yet, a space farer with this technology comes to earth during this period.

    Though it sounds silly, I find this much more believable.
     
    #27 2Hybrids, Apr 30, 2006
  8. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 29 2006, 11:45 PM) [snapback]247476[/snapback]</div>
    I'm really not sure here whether you are describing what the Catholics call purgatory (a period of cleansing through extreme pain, prior to being admitted to heaven) or whether you are saying that god will torture people for honestly admitting that they do not believe in him, before finally killing them. Kind of like a psychopath who, having caught a mouse in the house, tortures it before killing it.
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 29 2006, 11:45 PM) [snapback]247476[/snapback]</div>
    Okay, now we're talking about belief here. We're not talking about behavior or obedience to basic moral precepts. We're talking about what people believe. You can lie about what you believe, you can pretend you believe, you can give money to some cult that pretends to possess the Only True Faith ™. But what you actually believe is just a part of who you are. It is not something you choose, any more than your height or your skin color.

    So now you are describing a god who has the power to change what a person himself does not have the power to change (his actual beliefs) but who plays this cat-and-mouse game, and after the person has answered honestly that he does not believe, this god of yours changes his unbelief into belief, and then tortures him for an unspecified period of time before either letting him into heaven or killing him. (As noted above, you do not clearly say which.) But on the other hand, you are saying that a person who lies to god, and claims to believe when he really doesn't, gets into heaven.

    You are making god seem even more of a psychopath than the Bible itself makes him out to be.

    Now let me tell you one of the many reasons I don't believe in god: I think that if there was a god, he would destroy all religion, for slandering him so egregiously.

    I have some radical Catholic friends, who take to heart the bit in the Bible about separating the sheep from the lambs, you know the passage: "I was thirsty and you gave me to drink..." etc., etc., etc. and believe that you cannot be saved except by works. They think that non-believers get to go to heaven if they do the works of mercy, while the hypocrites who say they believe but neglect the works of mercy, are the ones who'll go to hell.

    Problem is, we won't get any of those folks onto Prius Chat because they also take to heart the bit about giving away everything to the poor, and they cannot afford to own a car.

    Here's the funny part: The panhandlers on the street who I (always!) give money to, tell me I am "blessed," and they are certainly closer to Jesus than people who have jobs and bank accounts and houses and expensive cars. These guys get kicked out of churches (I've heard this story many times from their own lips) because they have nowhere to take a shower and they smell bad. These are Jesus's people. (Blessed are the poor... The son of man has nowhere to lay his head... etc.)

    Does your church have a homeless person or family living in its basement? I figure there's about as many churches as homeless individuals and families in the USA, and that if every church took in one, we'd have no more homelessness. A church that turns away the homeless has turned away Jesus. He said so himself!

    Of course, I don't believe there is a heaven or a hell. I just find it amusing when from all sides people are telling me where I'm going after I die, but they seem pretty much evenly split on where it'll be.
     
    #28 daniel, Apr 30, 2006
  9. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 30 2006, 10:07 AM) [snapback]247531[/snapback]</div>
    I belong to a Unitarian church. A lot of us (me included) don't believe in God- at least the God described in all those biblical passages. I think you'd have to look pretty hard to find one of us who believes in the existence of hell. But we do run a soup kitchen, and we're part of an interfaith group that provides temporary shelter for homeless families.
    I just try to live a decent life while I'm here on earth, and I don't worry about the afterlife, as I have no way of knowing what will happen then. As for the original question; since hell is a fictional place, whether or not it is forever is a moot point.
     
    #29 larkinmj, Apr 30, 2006
  10. Begreen

    Begreen Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 30 2006, 09:17 AM) [snapback]247569[/snapback]</div>
    That is exactly what the Axial sages suggested three thousand years ago, before religions split off into sects and factions. They called for the abandonment of selfishness and a spirituality of compassion. One needs to be personally responsible now. Me, I take H.L. Menken's perspective:
    "I believe that the evidence for immortality is no better than the evidence of witches, and deserves no more respect. "
     
    #30 Begreen, Apr 30, 2006
  11. eyeguy13

    eyeguy13 Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 28 2006, 09:07 AM) [snapback]246611[/snapback]</div>
    Same here but...

    Life on Earth is Hell as long as the neo-cons and religious right are in charge! :rolleyes: It will end when the Democrats take control in 2006 and 2008. :)
     
    #31 eyeguy13, Apr 30, 2006
  12. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 30 2006, 09:17 AM) [snapback]247569[/snapback]</div>
    Ha ha. I belong to a UU church also. But I was asking Wildkow if his church opened its basement for a homeless family (or person) to live in. I applaud you for being in a church that runs a soup kitchen. UU's are as a rule very active both in charity and in liberal politics. But homeless people need both food and shelter.

    In Moorhead, MN, (where I worked as a volunteer about 15 hours a week for 5 years at the Dorothy Day House of Hospitality) there is another shelter called Churches United for the Homeless. It's a very good homeless shelter. It's run and supported by a coalition of local churches, each of which has pledged some fairly small amount of money per inscibed member per year. Many of them do not meet their pledges. But most of them feel that by giving some financial support to the shelter, they have somehow fulfilled their christian duty to the poor. But it requires some considerable mental gymnastics to argue that simply giving some money to a shelter they are living their supposed faith in the man they call the Christ.

    It shows most of all on the coldest nights of the year, as well as on the worst mosquito nights of summer. (If we're talking about hell, let me tell you that being outdoors and unprotected on a mosquito night in Fargo-Moorhead is a pretty good definition of a literal hell. The mosquitos can be as thick around you as the blades of grass on a lawn.) On these most extreme nights all the shelters fill up. Dorothy's, Churches United, the YWCA, and the New Life Center can be full and turning people away.

    When that happens, and not one single church opens its doors to the homeless who remain outside, I would be terrified of god's judgement if i believed in him! When that happens, those churches have demonstrated that they are shrines to the American god of wealth, and are not houses of the christian god at all. They lock their doors because they are afraid that those homeless people would steal things (and some of them would). But what does Jesus say about possessions and theft? Does he say to lock your doors and the doors of your churches? Or does he say to give what you have to those that need it?

    There used to be one church that opened it's basement. Fr. Bill Merkhins (who was also a co-founder of the Dorothy Day House of Fargo-Moorhead) defied the city authorities and allowed people to sleep in his church basement (the Newman Center). His love for "Christ's poor" was greater than his fear of jail. He has since been transfered away. (Moorhead's loss and Red Lake's gain!) But all the other churches remained locked.

    Why do I have such contempt for churches? Because they pretend to worship god, but they actually worship their own wealth and property. Because they turn away from their doors the very man they pretend to worship. Jesus said, "As you do unto the least of these, you do unto me" When they lock their doors, they are locking out their own god.
     
    #32 daniel, Apr 30, 2006
  13. Bob Allen

    Bob Allen Captainbaba

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    I received a pamphlet from the Baptists about hell. Their claim is that hell is in the center of the earth and that scientists (not too many, I would venture) have heard the screams of the tormented coming from volcanoes. They further discuss the actual dimensions of hell and how large it would be to hold the 40 billion some odd people who have ever lived. Taken literally, that last statement implies that very very few, apparently, make it to heaven. Anyway, it would take only about 100 miles in diameter to hold all of us.

    Had the Baptists actually visited me at my home, I would have gladly told them that, as an ex Catholic, I was already versed in hell and the dire consequences of sin, and had been so since I was in the second grade when the good nuns deemed us able to understand mortal sin. The real mortal sins are missing Mass on Sunday and touching yourself below the neck except to clean yourself. What exactly it was we were not supposed to touch would have to wait until about the 6th grade when it would be more obvious.

    In the seventh grade, my mother bought some budget underwear for me with cheap elastic legbands that were always breaking and leaving me unsupported as it were. I learned to keep things on an even keel using the hand in the pocket trick. One of the nuns spotted me doing this and asked me to come see her before recess at which time she admonished me for "playing with myself". Given that you could have hidden a Volkswagen in her habit, I thought it somewhat unfair that she should single me out for correcting an obvious defect in my underpants, NOT a secretive attempt to test God's mercy by playing with myself.

    Pamphlets like this one remind me of just how deeply seated the anti-science mind is in this country. Almost by implication is the idea that our rational, inquisitive minds are some sort of trick played on us by God and that to indulge in reasonable scientific inquiry is to imperil our souls.

    The Baptists who sent me this seem to have forgotten the New Testament. One need not fear hell if one lives with compassion.....isn't that the gist of Judaism, Christianity and Islam? Granted, it would be hard for Pat Robertson, et al, to do fundraising if we weren't all supposed to live in fear of (insert: "gay agendas", "secular humanism", "godless communism", etc, etc)

    I couldn't answer the poll question because I can't even get to the first principle of the thought behind it. I'm really bothered by all the hand wringing over moral issues, the practice of which cause no discomfort to the believer (e.g. heterosexual fundamentalists experience no discomfort denying me the right to marry / Bush and Frist using Terry Schiavo in order to "look moral", etc.) while blithely ignoring real issues of injustice, violence, hunger and oppression caused in part by the consumer lifestyles of these same fundamentalists.

    Bob
     
    #33 Bob Allen, Apr 30, 2006
  14. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Apr 30 2006, 07:43 PM) [snapback]247684[/snapback]</div>
    i love how religious folk use "scientists" to prove their "points." sorry, but as a scientist... leave my work the %$(* out of it.

    i have yet to see any person refuting any possibly-unreligious claim supply me with a statement about how it's published in "many respected journals like Nature" and actually give me the citation so i can see it for myself! what kind of crap is that? it's called lying, then copping out when your bluff is called.

    unlike the majority of americans, i do science for a living. i put in the hard hours in the laboratory, the hours upon hours reading papers, writing proposals, studying a system from top to bottom in the most intricate detail. i have access to any journal i care to get my hands on through Duke's institutional subscription. and by many lit searches i still do not find these articles all over "respected journals like Nature"

    and i'm sure that the average sheep says "oh, scientists say it, it must be true"

    except... i haven't seen any scientist say it in any kind of peer reviewed journal. someone's bullshitting...

    THANK YOU....

    someone else sees it the same way i do.


    for my opinion...
    if all the judgmental people and haters here on earth are going to heaven... that doesn't sound like heaven to me.
     
    #34 galaxee, Apr 30, 2006
  15. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Apr 30 2006, 07:43 PM) [snapback]247684[/snapback]</div>
    I know an geological oceanographer who is the world's leading authority on underwater volcanoes. I will be sure to ask him if he has ever heard the screams of the tormented :)
     
    #35 larkinmj, Apr 30, 2006
  16. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

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    Reading a few of the comments here has made me think. I'm also a scientist, and anyone who works in this profession knows that science has taken a beating in the Bush administration. Real scientists have been replaced by industry hacks on advisory boards and government agencies. Recommendations by scientists have been disregarded when they don't fit the administration's agenda, and reports on environmental and health issues have been edited where they raised concerns about current administration policies.
    I always figured that the subversion of science in the Bush administration was because the interests of oil, gas, coal, pharmaceutical and other corporations were a greater priority to them than the health and welfare of the American people, and I still believe that this is largely the case. But Bush and many in his administration are fundamentalists- the kind that go apoplectic over stem cell research- and it is most likely the case that they have a hatred and mistrust of science and scientists.
     
    #36 larkinmj, Apr 30, 2006
  17. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 30 2006, 05:18 PM) [snapback]247694[/snapback]</div>
    For exactly the same reason, Mark Twain said: "Heaven for climate; hell for society."
     
    #37 daniel, Apr 30, 2006
  18. eyeguy13

    eyeguy13 Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 30 2006, 09:34 PM) [snapback]247751[/snapback]</div>
    I agree and I can't figure out why the Bush Administration has this mistrust. It may not only be mistrust, it could be as simple as ignorance.

    Cronyism is alive and well in this administration. Many on the Bush Administration's team are close friends of the President and go back with him to his days in Texas. Probably most are not qualified to fill the jobs they are in. They may just be advising the President on issues that they don't have a full grasp on. Other past presidents would bring in specialists from outside their close sphere of friends. Bush did this in 2000. But then in 2004, all that ended. Nominating Harriet Myers to the Supreme Court is a prime example. She may be a fine lawyer, but Supreme Court judge worthy?

    Hell is also sometimes on FHOP when you are being voraciously ripped apart for your views :) If 'ya can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!
     
    #38 eyeguy13, Apr 30, 2006
  19. geologyrox

    geologyrox New Member

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    I thought I'd summed up my opinions on some thread in the past, but as I can't find it now...

    I'm a humanist (when I'm not being a pastafarian) and I think that any God that created us out of the goodness of his supernatural heart would appreciate my desire to do good for others in this world. I don't make my choices based on my belief in an afterlife - I live my life primarily for me and those I love, but with the intention of giving what I can to this world, doing as little harm as possible to that world and the people that populate it. While I don't 'worship' a god I believe that the life we have on this planet is precious and deserves our respect and protection, and if a God truly did create this, he'll know just how grateful I am each and every time I get to see the sun set, or crest a hill and see eternity in the rocks ahead of me...

    I live an ethical life because I think humanity and the world we live in is worth it, and while I'm not convinced there's a God, I'm convinced that any God worth worshipping would approve of the attempt.



    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ---Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. ---Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
     
    #39 geologyrox, May 1, 2006
  20. skepti

    skepti New Member

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    it would be only a matter of punishment to realise it had been true , just the way one punishes his kido ..

    :unsure:
     
    #40 skepti, May 1, 2006
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