Is anyone sorry they bought a Prius?

Hi Dave,

Notwithstanding the Toyota marketing claim that the traction battery will last for the life of the vehicle (BTW what does that mean? I understand that the auto industry expects vehicle life to be 10 years/150K miles); I would say these estimates are wildly optimistic. I have a poll going on in the Gen 1 Prius Discussion subgroup. So far, 6 out of 37 respondents indicated they have had their traction batteries replaced.
http://priuschat.com/forums/generation-1-prius-discussion/45766-classic-prius-repairs.html

I have owned three Toyota hybrids and have had two traction batteries replaced so far at relatively low miles (and have never run out of fuel).

My guess is that at 250K miles, almost all traction batteries will need to be replaced. At 140K miles, probably 25% to 33% of the population will need to be replaced.

 

What responce???????????????????

Man, you just don't give up do you? I still don't see any real numbers proving anything, other then trunk size. Or did you think your “estimate†of battery cost proved something? It is obvious with your continued aggressive attitude, use of vulgar words and lack of any real calculations, you just want to argue. I probably couldn’t prove to you that 1+1=2 at this point.

So with that said, I’m sorry I posted anything in the first place.

 

Wow, you guys are taking this way too seriously. For that you owe this guy a BIG apology.

 

Given that we're talking about pre 04 Prii, this doesn't appear to be any kind of downside to me. The first 3 responders (I got tired I admit) have 7 or 7.5 year old Prii. If they only drove the US average of 15000 miles, that's over 100000 miles. And 37 respondents isn't a very large sample. Kind of like the Consumer Reports surveys, those who have a lot of problems are more likely to respond versus those who just have a few. There is a posting elsewhere about taxicabs making it over 300K on one battery. Of course, Toyota's batteries may be improving too.

I do wonder though about how the transmissions are holding out, and how much they cost to repair? With only 22 parts it would seem they might be a bit cheaper than conventional transmissions (at least at the dealer) to repair. Since a conventional transmission can last as little as 39K miles (don't get me started) or not usually more than 140K, a cheaper-to-repair transmission might help pay for new batteries about the same time.

Of course, 100,000 miles in my Blazer would be roughly 6500 gallons of gas vs. 2000 with my Prius. For me, the cost of a battery at even $3 a gallon is a real bargain!

 

Hmm, so "pissed" isn't vulgar now and you weren't aggressive? At least I have some idea what I'm talking about. I get irritated with folks like you blowing smoke.

Your numbers and assumptions are bogus. I looked at comparable cars and did my own calcs. I didn't pick smaller vehicles like you did (Corolla, Civic) as the Prius was the right size, just like I said from the start. 2/3 of your argument got thrown out right there.

You want numbers? Let's look at the Camry (which my wife doesn't like...so it was out), only a little cheaper in the same trim/features with far worse gas mileage. Difference in price = ~$2k (assuming I would knock $1k off of the Camry MSRP with required options and comparing to my Prius delivered cost.) Wouldn't really matter since the 2.4 L four-cylinder automatic would get about 29 mpg combined according to the EPA--and I'm giving it an extra .5 there. In three years @15,000 miles/yr the difference in price is covered by gasoline savings with a few hundred to spare. In 10 years the difference is $11,400 ($6,500 without adjusting for fuel inflation.) So the Camry would be behind by about $9,400. I used a 12% inflator for gasoline at a price of $3.4/gal (about 5% less than the run rate it has had for the past 7 years--and the relatively cheap gas price is a holdover from old calcs.) I typically keep vehicles for 10 years/150,000 miles.

Hey, you finally got some numbers right! Just goes to prove that even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again!

I'm sorry you did too. Next time pick your fights better.

Toyota nailed it by getting this vehicle in at just the right size point for a family car, and with sufficient fuel economy to overcome price differences on comparably equipped vehicles. At $2/gal the payouts were longer, but at 2008 prices it isn't even close to being a problem, Mr. Negativity.

Unlike your initial assertions I'm not having to work hard to get good mileage and in fact it has been entertaining. Ran 51 mpg today in two 35 mile legs at 65-75 mph depending on speed zones and traffic, this included quite a few hill climbs and curves with the AC running, and a stretch of construction where we were stuck in stop and go. That's nothing special as I'm averaging nearly 49 mpg on this 2nd tank, up 2 mpg from the first tank. I bought this car to get good mileage, and so far it is delivering.

 

Man, did you forget “You’re full of crap†and “FUBARâ€

I am glad you are happy and glad you finally put some number down. Hey, you’re not as stupid as I thought. Just very, very, very, very argumentative and buligreatent. Although you are still not showing how you came up with some of the numbers, that’s convenient! None of my numbers are bogus, you just do not have all the facts. If you were really an engineer, you would know you can’t compare apple with oranges.

I love my Camry and averaged 30-32 MPG on every tank for 225,000 miles. After driving my Prius 7,000 miles, the best I can do is 49 MPG, which rapidly drops to 42 if I don’t: drive 10 MPH under the speed limit, glide down every hill, try to stay in all electric mode when every possible and maximize the regenerative braking at every stop. This adds ½ hour to every 200 mile commute I make.

Man, you don’t know how to get a bargain, do you? I could have had my pick of a dozen 09 Camry’s at $17,999. That’s a cost saving of $4161 over the base Prius. No bargaining on the 08 Prius. Now add 7 years of interest on the difference, higher license and insurance fees and you are at $6,270

Let’s use 15,000 miles per year since this was your assumption.

Camry: 15,000/31 average MPG = 483.87 gallons (Based on my mileage for 225k miles)
Prius: 15,000/49 MPG = 306.12 gallons (Based on numerous driving habit changes)

The difference being: 177.75 gallons

I’ll use your gas start price of $3.40 gallon.

Do you realize that if gas inflation had been 12% since the first tank of gas I bought in 1976 for $1.00/Gal, today’s price of gas would be $37.58/Gal. But I will still use your 12% inflation so we can compare apples with apples.

Year 2 gas cost per gallon = $3.80
Year 3 = $4.26
Year 4 = $4.77
Year 5 = $5.35
Year 6 = $5.99
Year 7 = $6.71

177.75 gallons = $604.34 savings for year number 1
177.75 gallons = $676.86 savings for year number 2
177.75 gallons = $758.09 savings for year number 3
177.75 gallons = $849.06 savings for year number 4
177.75 gallons = $950.95 savings for year number 5
177.75 gallons = $1,065.06 savings for year number 6
177.75 gallons = $1,192.87 savings for year number 7

Total 7 years gas cost savings = $6.097.23

Deduct this from the $6,270 higher cost of the Prius and Camry saves you $172.77

That’s a far cry from your paying the cost difference in 3 years. I never keep a car 7 years and I don’t know anyone else that does. So this is not a break even deal at 15,000 miles per year. And that takes use back to my original comments that you need to drive the car more then the average miles per year to make a huge price difference. I never said that you couldn’t save money buying a Prius, just need to drive the wheels off of it.

BTW, this was never a fight for me, just a friendly discussion that you blew out of proportion. Get your facts straight next time, ask questions before you blindly call people liars.

 

There previously was a rash of Classic transaxle failures reported, which prompted interest in used transaxle fluid testing (however my little poll indicates a low % of transaxle failures.) I haven't noticed many 2G owners reporting the need for transaxle replacement.

If you are among the unlucky few, a transaxle replacement will probably cost ~$6K at the dealer because the repair philosophy is a whole unit swap, not repair of the failed unit. I am not aware of a credible aftermarket alternative source of transaxles (i.e., no AAMCO or equivalent source.) You could install a salvage part, which might save you $2K-$3K if you can find an independent mechanic to install it.

 

Thank Patrick. After I posted, I got to thinking about the likelihood of getting a deal that way.

But my personal savings (since my other vehicle is a Chevy Blazer) on gas will pay for the battery and the transaxle! And the financing cost really doesn't matter since I was in need of a new vehicle anyway (a really major point I talk about with people asking about whether they should buy a new Prius). The insurance is cheaper. Not sure about maintenance since I've not had the problems with my Blazer other people have had, other than to say that it was getting close to 100K miles... and is still on the original brakes (my mechanic said I should get about 150K at the rate I'm going), shocks, muffler, etc.

 

You know, if you are going to pick a fight with someone, calling them "argumentative and buligreatent" just makes you look like a hypocrite...and not a very bright one judging by your spelling.

I can tell when someone passing themselves off as an engineer is distorting their basis and doesn't know what they are talking about. I can also tell when someone uses incomplete bases to come to a pre-conceived conclusion as you have done. (Seen it too often in project economics.) I'll illustrate some more for you since you don't know when to quit.

It sounds like a problem with the driver, because I'm getting 49 and am not driving like a granny, far from it.

You can't get a Camry with the same options as the #2 Prius for anywhere near that price. Dealer invoice was several thousand over that. I did apples to apples, you like to throw in oranges. (Having negotiated on Camry's before some years ago what I learned is that dealers are too damned proud of the things, so I let them keep them and bought an Accord for $4K less. It was a great car for 10 years, 150,000 miles.)

I did not obtain insurance quotes on each, but wouldn't expect any significant difference. I wouldn't expect taxes to be significantly different on the $2,000 purchase difference either (your $4k just doesn't pass the sniff test.) For a $2,000 dollar difference the interest effect is small and is soon offset by gasoline savings (which also draw interest). If the total impact of all these was $1,000 over the life of the vehicle I would be surprised.

Not that it matters much for this but why mix bases? It is just sloppy as is the rest of your work. I used average/combined EPA numbers of 29 mpg for the 2.4L Camry (spotting 0.5 mpg on the average), and 46 for the Prius (published combined.)

It isn't 1976, 1986, or 1996. The days of having easily tapped extra global oil production capacity are gone--especially for light crudes. Inelasticity of demand is not gone. The demand growth side looks to outstrip the supply side for the next 5-10 years. (I recognized this during project analysis in the 2002-2003 timeframe.)

You are off by at least $3,000 dollars on your cost basis difference as I have noted above, and that only if I grant you $1,000 for an insurance/registration/interest difference that I'm skeptical of in the first place.) So congratulations in reality you've proven the Prius will save a driver money in 7 years compared to your beloved Camry at 15,000 miles a year.

Whereas you originally claimed "If you don't drive at least 30,000 miles a year, you would be better off buying a car that gets 30-35 MPG for at least $6000 less."

You haven't given a car that meets your own criteria: equivalent for $6,000 less and 30-35 mpg. Even using only 7 years (105,000 miles) and your FUDGING to create a $6,000 difference you are showing breakeven at 15,000 miles/year. Your claim that I originally responded to is completely busted.

In reality you should be using the full 10 years/150,000 miles.

You must have atypical acquaintances because most folks I know hang onto their vehicles longer. It makes good economic sense. I've always bought new vehicles that I liked enough that I didn't want to replace them and have gotten 150,000 miles out of all of them.

However, with you driving ~40,000 miles per year keeping vehicles longer would indeed be undesirable. I would hate spending ~$3,000 more per year in gasoline, the extra expense on tires and oil, and spending an extra ~$20,000 three years earlier for a new car (that's an additional cost of about $800-1,000 per year), but it is your lifestyle, not mine. I wouldn't want to throw away that much money and that many extra hours a week.

Even by your implausible purchase cost basis it is. Ever hear of significant digits?

But in reality if a person drives 15,000 miles per year they are looking at a lifetime of around 10 years or a swap out for a new vehicle while having a far better residual value in the Prius vs. Camry. Just for grins I did a comparison of 2001 Camry and Prius on Edmunds for resale. Private party difference for the same setup, 105,000 miles, and condition was $3,000 in Prius' favor. Again you've neglected to create a consistent basis for comparison, forgetting to add in the higher resale value of the Prius.

That isn't what you said, I'll quote it again. In the first post: "If you don't drive at least 30,000 miles a year, you would be better off buying a car that gets 30-35 MPG for at least $6000 less."
In a later post "Do the math, if you don't drive at least 30,000 miles per year for at least 5-6 years, the car does not pay for it's self."

Your basis is invalid. There are so many holes in it we can use it as a strainer.

 

An almost complete presentation. Kudos.

I too have had several Camry's before the current Prius. All were near perfect for upwards of 200,000 miles each. My typical driving has been 30,000 - 50,000 miles annually for the last 20+ years. The 30-32 mpg figure on the I4 Camry is the correct value for daily driving on highways. 48 mpg is also the correct value for daily driving on highways for the Prius ( 87,000 mi and counting ).

The concept of continually escalating fuel prices is one that I've been harping for some time now. Edmunds is the worst offender when they do their ocassional analyses because they always screw it up and make some goofy estimate like fuel will remain @ $2.80 / gal forever. Their most recent analysis was done when fuel was at $4.00. The concept of a graduated scale of fuel prices hopefully will be more common in the future. I realistically think that they will increase by $0.50 / gal on average every year from now on.
$2.85 in 2007
$3.35+ in 2008
$4.00 in 2009
$5.00 in 2011
$6.00 in 2013.... a 'typical' holding period for a vehicle.
$7.00 in 2015
$8.00 in 2017
$9.00 in 2019
$10.00 in 2021

A 'keeper' who holds a vehicle for 10+ years will gain significantly by driving the more fuel efficient vehicle. His average of fuel over that entire 10 yr period will be about $5.00 to $6.00 per gallon. At 15000 mi per over 10 yrs ..
the normal I4 Camry ( 32 )will use 4690 gal @ $5.50
The normal Prius ( 48 ) will use 3125 gal @ $5.50 .... A net savings of ~1500 gal.

Now as to the differences in the prices. $18000 is a very good deal now on a Base model Camry ( invoice less a $500 rebate ). As you noted a good buyer would get such a price. An average buyer would pay $500-$1000 more. However a 'good' buyer wouldn't buy a Prius today because it's not a 'good' buy. He/she would have bought in Feb or maybe in Nov/Dec when there was/will be supply enough to get a deal. Most large Toyota stores sold Prius just above invoice when there were several on the lot. That would make a 'good' buy on a Package #2 right around $22000. Apples to apples. However with the Base Camry you also lose the VSC and SKS features. These have value for a lot of buyers. The Camry OTOH has more room and more power. These have value for a lot of buyers.

This brings us back again to the same $4000 pricing differential that always seems to pop up when roughly similar vehicles are analysed.
Base Camry vs Prius
Base Matrix vs Prius
This is not a coincidence.

Your analysis also addressed the concept of the time value of money. That $4000 invested ( or not spent/financed ) could have generated some income ( pretax )....6% pa? 4% pa aftertax? That $4000 invested at a net of 4% pa for 10 yrs would become ~$5900.

However you left out a significant concept that everyone forgets. RESALE VALUE.

Admittedly two vehicles driven for 15000 miles annually for 10 yrs would be worth next to nothing at the end of 10 yrs....maybe $1500 and $2000 respectively. However for shorter periods of ownership the resale value matter quite a bit. After 3 yrs or 5 yrs or even 7 yrs the Prius will 'recoup' a significant portion of its original premium at the time of resale.

 

I love my Prius. I never really cared what car I drove before. Now, I wouldn't drive anything else. If I had to trade this one in, I would only do it for another Prius.

 

Deadphish,

In my response to him I noted Edmunds is showing a difference of ~$3,000 in favor of the Prius on resale at his preferred 7 year/105,000 comparison. This was an egregious omission on his part for a comparison that would get rid of the car early.

As you noted his basis is apples to oranges because the same level of cars are not being compared as well as the timing of the purchase. Compare the base level Prius to the base level automatic Camry and the differential would be ~$2,000 on invoice for a similar "deal." Yet, for short holding of the vehicle the differential on resale appears to be higher and sufficient to completely offset the so called "hybrid premium." (Although I excluded it from my comparison, if I'm going to buy a Camry, it won't be the I4 as it is underpowered for the weight. If I'm going to get mediocre gas mileage I want more usable power as compensation. We went through this back when we bought our Accord, their 4 banger VTEC ran circles around the Camry with 4 banger, so I was looking at a large premium for the V6 Camry. Obviously going with the V6 wipes out any premium.)

The interest on the gasoline conserved would also need to be added each year if one is looking at the payback. He instead moved the perceived annual benefits from lower purchase/interest all into year 0, and didn't add back on the interest from accrued fuel savings.

For folks who don't need the same level of interior space or automatic transmission, etc. the results could be different, if they find a vehicle to their liking with high enough MPG and low enough sticker. And obviously there are those for which the Prius cannot meet their needs for hauling passengers/cargo, etc.

 

You still missed the point I made several times in my last post. My numbers were shifted to make an apples-to-apples comparison to your numbers. There is no way that a true comparison can be made. You want something different in a car then I do, and our choices in trim levels would be different in different cars. My cost of $17,999 for the Camry LE was exactly what I wanted in the Camry, and the Base model Prius is all I wanted. Taxes, insurance, license fees, gas cost, years of ownership, resale valve, inflation, etc... Will be different for everyone.

I shouldn't have given a cost savings in my original post. The savings (which I still stand behind 100%) were based on my circumstances, not everyone else’s.

The lesson I learned here is to backup any claims I make and not to argue with a person that loves to fight more then trying to find the facts.

You win.................. :smash:

 

I also got tired of coming up with excuses to drive my wife's Prius so am turning in my Hy Hylander for a new Prius [which hopefully will arrive this week!]

 

well, interesting info you have posted...now let me clarify one thing...i am citing a study NOT DONE BY TOYOTA...

the details i am fuzzy on as i have stated, how the conclusion i remember and the study concluded that the great majority of owners, assuming proper maintenance of traction batteries (iow, dont run it when out of gas!!!) will never have any battery quality issues.

the study based its findings on the fact that the 04 model year had improved battery monitoring and control systems (less modules, easier to control, etc) and proven, verified, completed, driven miles on previous MY for the 2003 and earlier Toyotas using less capable battery charging systems.

the problem i really have is that i had a windows 98 machine that was primarily used for file storage...old crap...real old crap....well, its starting to fail on me...complicate the matter with 12 hard drives that can only be read by that machine. i cannot run the machine longer than about 20 mins while transfering files before it crashes (from heat i assume) it is there somewhere that i have the article... tried a search on the internet but it was from a magazine i dont have access to most of the archives they have so unlikely to be able to provide a link.

but hey!!! im not here to convince you to either buy a Prius, or keep the one you have... so that all i have to say on that

 

Love mine too. If I had to make a choice between which car to keep, my 2006 BMW 325i or my Prius, I would choose my Prius. -without a doubt!

 

I've been having some qualms since I bought mine over the weekend. I thought I got a pretty good deal on it - an '08 Base for $15,995 and I drove 4 hours to a dealership to pick it up. I also bought extended warranty and scheduled maintenance which added another $30/month. Now my payment is about $80 higher than the Kia Optima I traded. I expect to save that much in gas expense, but was hoping for more savings rather than just a wash. The car had 55K miles - my '07 Optima had 63K. I guess I'm just nervous about an additional $80 car payment.

I also didn't know until I was driving back home that it didn't have cruise control. The information I read on the car said it had cruise, and when I was test driving it, I didn't think to check for that. When I checked online after I got home, I see that the '08 base doesn't come with cruise - it's optional. That was disappointing. I haven't had a car without cruise in about 30 years!

 

No ! Im not sorry at all, i love my Prius

 

Sorry to hear about your qualms, dhenning2. I think some PCers saved money on their warranties and maintenance plans by going through Troy. IIRC, some even cancelled their existing warranties to get their money back so they could get it cheaper through him. Maybe you could do that. Read this post for more information.

Yeah, I consider cruise a necessity, too. It's standard on the Gen 3, though omitted on the rare I.

 

Here are my thoughts:

Assuming no need for extra repairs I will not be sorry I bought the Prius because I've been driving a safer, bigger and more intelligent and interactive car (see back-up camera, no idling).

In terms of costs, kind of a big deal for me, the Prius has cost me $25,500 with interest while a Corolla would have been $20,300. On the one hand a Prius's re-sale value is more than $4,000 higher than a Corolla. On the other hand even assuming similar repair bills and given my driving habits, I'll need about 12 years to match the costs (without calculating inflation). Then again can I imagine myself having enough fun in a 2007 Corolla for 12 years? NO! So, financially speaking the Prius makes sense for drivers who pile miles more than me, but then again it does not depreciate much.