If GM Designed The Prius!

I agree that GM produces a VERY FEW decent cars. A $60K sportscar with a big engine SHOULD be good. So should a Cadillac Escalade, but they're not ... some of the Cadillac offerings look good when new, but if you look any amount closer, you'll find that they're a reliability and maintenance headache. Resale values bear this out, with the exception of the very specialized cars like corvettes.

Take a look at what a 2 year old Cobalt, Malibu, or other non-specialty GM vehicle is worth as a percentage of it's MSRP. Wait till you see what the $42K Volt is worth 2 years later ... probably $16K, if that.

I owned a 2001 GMC Sierra that had a 'from the factory', built in, shimmy in the front end. They could never solve it ... it had to do with the amount of crossmembers under the transmission .... rather than recall it, or fix it, they just strung you along with 'repair attempts', and the next year they fixed the problem in the production line.

That, and several other garbage GM products sealed their fate with me. Look realistically at the reliability statistics from any major data collecting service, and I don't mean cherry pick a good one here and a good one there ... look at the overall picture, and see what it says about GM ...

I'm glad your high end GM's are treating you well, but the middle of the line offerings from the non-premium brands don't treat people well. They're still at the bottom of the barrel in terms of US car makers, and they're UNDER the barrel compared to the Asian products.

REV

 

That is a big depreciation! I hope youre right because that means a big market for used Volts. Good for the environment, but not GM.

 

I usually don't involve myself with sophomoric brand bashing, but it would be wise for Toyota not to follow the same road that GM did when they were the world's largest auto maker, and they're already on their way down that path (IMHO).
Toyota and Honda used to be the gold brick standards for quality and value. I can't speak for Honda (although I have test driven a Civic in the last month, and I plan to follow up with test driving an Insight... )
I owned three Toyotas in the early 90s. I currently drive a '10 company car and my experience is that Toyota has progressed from very high value and quality, to high quality with a high price, and they're trending towards high price without so much of the high quality.
I'll stipulate that a G3-II probably represents a good value in green eco-box transportation---maybe one of the better values. I'm still looking into that.
However (comma!) my current G3-II has fit and finish issues, and ergonomical fusterclucks that I find dissapointing in a $24,000 car and that I would never put up with in a $34,000 car!
I could almost put up with some of the ergonomical oppsies---since the Aichi Iron Works had to make some engineering decisions based on ecological and economical constraints...but Toyota had better start looking in their rear-view mirror! (....and they'd better hope that the view isn't as cluttered as the one in my G3!)
Companies like Hyundai, Suzuki, FOMOCO, and yes....even GM that used to be the butt of many jokes and jolly good times out there in Toyota City are working pretty hard to catch up, and if recent stories in the Automotive Press are any indication...they are catching up!

I don't usually find myself quoting from the New York Times (an institution that is encountering similar ah, (*) quality issues.)
However, here's an abstract from a story that they ran...yesterday, as a matter of fact!

Coming off a year in which Toyota recalled the most vehicles of any automaker in the United States, the company said Sunday it is opening two additional regional product quality offices, one in Houston and the other in Jacksonville, Fla.
In a news release, the automaker said the action was part of a plan to have regional offices nationwide in which three to five “technical and engineering specialists” would deal with issues likely to occur in those areas.
The automaker said the goal was to gather information “enhancing the company’s ability to detect, analyze and respond to customer and quality issues in the field.”

 

I'll certainly concede ETC, that Toyota isn't the bastion of quality that they once were, and I think Honda has fallen even farther than Toyota down the quality slope, and they did it earlier in the decade than Toyota as well. Still ... all things taken account of, Toyota is still excellent compared to the rest. My G3 II, although only a few weeks old with me now, has no fit and finish issues at all (so far ), knock on wood, etc, etc.

The likes of Hyundai and KIA, as well as FOMOCO, are nipping at the heels of Toyota, Honda, and Subaru, but I think that Toyota has learned their lesson, and will go back to basics regarding quality. They were lucky to have dodged the bullet this time without a huge financial hit, and I think they'll learn from it.

A company that will never learn, though, is GM. They can talk quality and reliability all they want, but the bottom line is ... when you get in a GM car ... you know it. They squeak, rattle, have horrible fit and finish, and use the cheapest products for their interiors in the industry. I rented a cavalier in Florida years ago, and you couldn't put the sun visor down without it hitting the rear view mirror. That is just disgusting, and it shows that they just flat out don't care .... about quality .... about reliabilty ... or about the consumer. Granted they may have a few good specialty products like the corvette, but that's as far as it goes. Their trucks used to be decent as well, although I had a disaster with a 2001 GMC.

To say nothing of the fact that they should have gone bankrupt two years ago, and they would have if obama wasn't in bed with all the unions. Nothing will ever convince me to remotely consider one of their products. Once the truth gets out about the Volt in the real world, it will be a laughingstock, IMO, but we shall see.

REV

 

Actually, I'd guess just the opposite ... if there were a big market for used volts, the prices wouldn't be low, they would be high. I'm guessing that the volt will be an unmitigated real world failure ... a cheaply equipped $42K car with quality and reliability issues galore. Kind of on the order of the ill-fated GM auto diesels. THese are just MY opinions keep in mind, and we all know what opinions are worth ....

Why do you think GM is doing such an ulta-cautious, limited, tiny numbers, roll-out ? Most likely to contain the costs when the recalls and problems start rolling in. Better to recall 5000 cars than 200,000. Less egg on their faces too. Early adopters of the volt will be GM's beta testers, only they won't be getting paid for it .... they'll be paying GM to do it.

Do yourself a favor .... buy TWO Prius'es for the $42K if you're considering a volt ...

REV

 

You're right.

Now that's going too far. Come on, I hate GM too but give them a bone for going green.

These aren't your opinions. These are your predictions. And unlike opinions, predictions can be wrong. My opinion is that GM sucks. My prediction is that the Volt will do surprisingly well.

4SHO PLAYA!

 

LOL MM05 !!!

Opinions, like predictions can be wrong as well !

I'll give them a bone when the volt performs as advertised, and only then. There will be early adopters clamoring to buy new and different products no matter the company, or the product. Only time will tell ...

REV

 

LOL!

Agreed.

Our opinions differ from topic to topic, and some.....even some of mine are proven to be wrong from time to time on the test track of life.
That's why you have to keep an open mind, and try and expose yourself to differing points of view.

(REV) I hope your G3 serves you well. All things considered, I'm really glad my company gave me one to play with. It's a great car.
Someday, I might buy one for myself!

 

Thanks for your well-wishes ETC ! Greatly appreciated.

Correspond with you soon, I'm sure, and looking forward to it.

This is a great forum, with lots of intelligent and knowledgeable members.

I hope to contribute more as my Prius newbie status subsides !

REV

 

When I think about the Prius, I think what a great value it is. Is it perfect, no. Could some things be better, of course. But I do think it is an amazing car for not alot of money (bought my II for just over $20,000.00). Alot of the comparisons between the Prius and the volt need to take into consideration that you can purchase a Prius for less than half what a Volt costs. Even some of the Corollas are more than a prius, which I think is crazy.

Has Toyota made some mistakes? Of course. The difference is I think they actually learn from them. I don't think it is a coincidence that they are having more quality issues as they produce more of their cars in the U.S. I give much credit to them for running a profitable company, and trying to be good neighbors. Toyota does not want to be the largest automobile manufacturer in the world. They know the pitfalls that come with it. Several years ago they raised prices of their vehicles in the hopes of slowing demand, but it didn't have much effect.

 

I had a 2000 GMC Sierra SLT with the Vortec 5.3 V8. From the factory the rear axle - made by American Axle and Manufacturing - had a leaking pinion seal

Within 2,000 km, that Vortec started knocking on startup. If I was looking at a used car that knocked like that when started, I'd run away in terror

Dealership at first promised to replace the motor, kept bluffing me off for a few months, then produced a weird TSB that stated cold start knocking, and oil consumption of 1 quart every 600 miles, was "normal"

Mine knocked like an old diesel on startup, and used 1 quart every 700 miles. Did I mention the very first time I applied the parking brake, when I pulled it into my garage, it went BOING and the return spring inside broke.

So I had to reach down to pull the pedal up after releasing the parking brake

Mine also had the AutoTrac transfer case, and I experienced numerous failures of the sensors and the mode select assembly. On warranty had to wait forever for parts, which meant in the meantime had a two wheel drive pickup. Off warranty, it was a $300 repair every time

That truck had four wheel disk brakes. The rear "drum in hat" parking brake was very weak at the best of times, needed constant adjustment, and actually wore out after only two years. Fortuntaely that was about the same time both rear axle seals went out and all the parts were warranty

My FJ Cruiser has a similar rear parking brake, and it has never needed adjustment. It seems to work just fine

What I liked about my SIerra: it had great leather bucket seats, light years beyond anything in a Toyota. Great factory sound system, with Speed Compensated Volume

A co-worker has a new Cruze with the turbo motor, which replaced a 10 year old Corolla he gave to his oldest son as a beginner car. So far his new Cruze is fine, and is averaging 5 mpg more than the Corolla. Good interior ergonomics

He is worried about the reliability of the turbo motor, but the new GM oil spec promises to be good for turbo motors. It should be, it's the same spec as the GM-LL used in the EU for their gasoline and light duty diesel motors

 

I made the mistake of letting them con me into keeping the repair order open for about 4 months while I 'tested' their most recent tire balancing, alignment, tire replacement, strut replacement, etc, etc. The net effect was that there was only ONE repair order, not the 3 or more needed for lemon law to take effect. Pretty good trick on their part. That will never happen again ....

Finally I traded the piece of junk in on a Dodge 4 door 1500. That thing was an animal.

I'll give the GMC credit though ... that 5.3L engine was mighty powerful. Too bad the wheel shook out of your hands while you were driving it .... I must have had that truck back to the dealership 15 times.

REV

 

Yep the 5.3 had a lot of power. I was just embarrassed to start it up after it sat a few hours in a parking lot

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

 

GM did rebadge Toyotas in the late 80's (Corolla as Nova). Those are some of the oldest GM's I see still on the road. I drove a Pontiac rental a couple years back (while my 2004 Solara was in the body shop) and I was appalled at the overall quality and the volume of the engine and road noise. It was a veritable torture chamber on wheels. My Prius is a little louder than I am used to, but my mom thinks it is much quieter than her Honda.

 

I just test drove a Civic. Priuses are quieter.
I also drove an Accord. Much quieter than the Prius.

So.....I guess it's just depending on which Honda you're talking about.

FWIW...the Yota has the Insight beat on noise and ride by a wide margin!! I'm meaning to drive the Insight some more, but my short test hop was encouraging.....The Insight promises to be (just a little) more fun to drive......if you're into that kinda thing.

 

After reading a few comments on the build quality of the Toyota, I thought some of you might want to see excerpts from a British TV Programme called 'Top Gear'.

The programme takes a light hearted look at the motor industry.

During a couple of episodes, they decided to try and destroy a Toyota Hilux. (thats what its called in the UK. You might know it by a different name.)

They tried to 'kill' it by crashing it, setting fire to it, dropping objects on it, drowning it and putting it on on top of a 10 storey building and blowing it up.

After each 'exercise' they tried to start it, and guess what, it started.

I think that says something for the Toyota.

See Youtube links below and enjoy. PS, The USA have recently brought the programme and a version of it will be shown in America soon.

 

I've got an '01 Saturn L wagon that I've put more into than any other car I've ever owned, well, actually more than every other car I've ever owned put together. The only reason I keep it is because that 54 degree 3L V6 is a smoooooottthhhhh running engine (not designed by GM, built in Elesemere, England and inhereted by GM) and it's a blast to drive with a very sweet suspension (built by Opel Germany for European Vectra underpinings).

 

Fine. you have your opinion, i have mine.

 

I guess from what I've read throughout this thread, that people have companies they love and hate. Where someone with a track record of this many cars from this particular company, basically can go both ways. If I had only owned 5 GM "insert vehicle here" and I always got over 300,000 miles on each with little to no spending on repairs then I'd have very little reason to choose another option regardless of what site or piece of paper shows how much GMs are a hunk of junk. But also if those same 5 vehicles gave me nothing but head ache while emptying my wallet, then I'd have no reason to go with that brand again...also regardless of what the statistics show.

Like with me, I have family members and friends that love the brand Saturn...I on the other hand hate them, because in one year I had to replace both the engine and transmission of a car that had a little under 100,000 miles. Cast my experience to bad luck but I already have that sour taste in my mouth, and I never want to see another Saturn in my driveway again. I used to own a 1985 Celica, it drove like a dream, I never had a problem with it except one repair which was the timing chain. We drove that Celica for at least 200,000 miles, and it probably would have went further if we hadn't wanted something newer (a decision I still regret). So basically would I buy another Saturn again, hell no, but the experience I had with the Celica has made me want to look at another Toyota. And even though I have looked at all the websites that either praise or criticize the Prius, it will be my past experience that will win me over in the long run.