I would be proud if the Prius was an American development

Lets' see now. Adult stem cells are actually currently being used for cures. Nobody, not even Bush are arguing against adult stem cell research. It holds great promise.

Embryonic stem cell research has produced nothing, and is contriversal. It has so far shown to be a flop.

Why do we push for wasting money on something that is highly contriversal that has yet to work, when something that ISN'T contriversal WORKS NOW?

It is like saying we should trash hybrids that are saving fuel NOW, over research that MIGHT bring us an economical hydrogen fuel cell in the distant future, if we ever figure out how to produce and distribute the hydrogen economically in the first place.
We can produce ethanol that can be used in TODAY'S vehicles and lessen, if not eliminate our dependence of foreign oil. Yes, Ethanol still needs development, but it is viable, even if marginally so, and will improve as we use it. Biodiesel is another promising alternative, and if I am not mistaken, can parallel the ethanol production (it is a byproduct, is it not).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanMan32\";p=\"100692)</div>

Dan, normally I've found your posts quite accurate, but where did you hear that embryonic stem cells have flopped so far?

Embryonic stem cells can grow into anything. They have that capability. Adult stem cells have a narrower capability. Yes, they can have value, but by definition it is narrower and smaller. And there have been numerous successes with embryonic stem cells. I think the failures you have heard about is due to the fact that researchers may be "biting off" too much too fast. And because there is a vested and well funded interest group that wants embyonic cells to fail, you get to hear about those failures. And those vested interests want the world to know about the success of adult cells. It fits into their propaganda.

And there have been hundreds of failures with adult cells too. But no well funded interest group that wants you to hear about it.

As for ethanol, yes it is certainly sounds doable. But doesn't it take about a gallon of gasoline to make every gallon of ethanol? Kind of makes it a bit less doable.

 

Re: I would be proud if the Prius was an American developmen

Considering what a technological backwater the USA is (ie, celphones, 3G, broadband, etc etc) be proud that we're still lucky enough to be able to even BUY a Prius, even if it does have some technology removed/dumbed down for the USA.

Of course it might a bit unfair to compare say Akihabara to your local Best Buy, but then it's still shocking how much technology still isn't available to USa, and won't be with a lag of ~2-3 years.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Robert Taylor\";p=\"99820)</div>

This might be unfair to compare because the Japanese companies (aka zaibatsu) are soo vertically integrated that each "could" be considered a monopoly here in the US. Closest we have are AT&T, GM?, IBM and Microsoft, and they've been "intervention"ed a few times whenever they've gotten too big. This vertical integration makes those large Japanese companies a small self-sufficient country onto themselves with huge R&D arms. What do we have now that can compare to Bell Labs, or such from the past? Google? Well it's not exactly automotive focused.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Robert Taylor\";p=\"99820)</div>

There can be a limitation for asking the gov to pay for R&D to only universities and dedicated research departments rather than corporate companies as a whole for stem-cell research funding as at least here in CA is formulated. Instead, we get outright banning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Robert Taylor\";p=\"99820)</div>

I think the EV1 was the only and best thing to pop out of it and it was GOOD, but it was killed quickly due to the "problem of plenty", not due to a lack of demand.

That is plenty of cheap oil here which is not the same reality in other countries creating a lack of economic incentive. With that SUV cash-cow tit chunking out golden eggs that are gobbled up non-stop by those wanting (not needing) a pretend-wealth horse-less carriage (back to the past!), the blame lies as much on the decadent population as well as normal capitalistic corporate greed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Robert Taylor\";p=\"99820)</div>

It's a coming reality in California now with the passing of that stem-cel proposition. Of course, it's probably historically too early for private money to invest into such risky R&D, but at the same time it costs much much less than funding a quagmire war.

If you're such a strong proponent of market forces to decide the future, we should stop subsidizing farms, stop banning importation of Canadian drugs, stop bailing out the airlines, don't bail out GM, don't get into a war for personal vendettas or oil, don't hand your buddies a contract to rebuild a country you just smashed, and so on.

But then, what else do you expect from our partially-authoritarian plutocratic government?

 

When Democrats have stupid financial boodoggles that waste billions of dollars, it goes to numerous programs and millions of people.

When Republicans have stupid financial boondoggles that waste billions of dollars, it goes to a select few.

Even when the 2 parties screw up, one of them is at least more democratic about it.




(Boy was that a stupid and meaningless and gross oversimplification. :LOL)

:lol: :wink: :lol: :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanMan32\";p=\"100692)</div>

I just did some research and turns out the successes from embryonic stem cells are indeed quite a bit behind the successes from Adult stem cells. But that's because embryonic stem cell research is much more expensive and cumbersome. Thus, embryonic cell research is considered much more in a preliminary and "infant" stage. (PUN not intended.)

The experts feel that the country or lab or whatever that starts making the first breakthroughs in embryonic stem cell research will "own" future medical research.

Seeing as how I've said before how the USA saw the greatest explosion in wealth and prosperity and culture and education during a certain 75 year period in American history when "liberalism" was the predominant political philosophy, and over the last 25 years, we have seen a return to a 19th century way of doing business. So why shouldn't our health care superiority also go back to the way it was in the 19th century?

So lets keep the ban on embryonic stem cells. In fact lets repeal the entire 20th century while we are at it including the billions in R&D paid for by the Feds for building an interstate highway system, building nuclear physics, landing on the moon, electrifying every corner of the country, and erasing polio, smallpox and other killers.

And all this time I thought the American 20th century was a success. Silly me. Long live the corporations!!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prius04\";p=\"100752)</div>

Dan, normally I've found your posts quite accurate, but where did you hear that embryonic stem cells have flopped so far?

Embryonic stem cells can grow into anything. They have that capability. Adult stem cells have a narrower capability. Yes, they can have value, but by definition it is narrower and smaller. And there have been numerous successes with embryonic stem cells. I think the failures you have heard about is due to the fact that researchers may be "biting off" too much too fast. And because there is a vested and well funded interest group that wants embyonic cells to fail, you get to hear about those failures. And those vested interests want the world to know about the success of adult cells. It fits into their propaganda.

And there have been hundreds of failures with adult cells too. But no well funded interest group that wants you to hear about it.

As for ethanol, yes it is certainly sounds doable. But doesn't it take about a gallon of gasoline to make every gallon of ethanol? Kind of makes it a bit less doable.
[/b][/quote]

All I ever hear about (including from you) is maybe's with embryonic. Yes, it would SEEM that embryonic would be more promising, but I have YET to hear evidence of success from ANYONE including you. I even re-read your post, and sure enough, it was supposition of promise.

And if you want to talk about growth due to liberalism, let's see.
Our "wealth" is going more to the rich because of unchecked greed, due to the fact that morals can no longer be justified due to relativism. How can you teach business ethics whithout imposing a moral point?
Let's talk about sexual freedom. Since then, we have an STD epidemic and fatherless children who don't have a strong father figure to teach them right from wrong. They pass that to their own kids.
The last 25 year flop isn't because of a shift back to moral standards, it's the reaping of what we have been sowing for the last 100 years. It just took too long for us to notice the results. Want to talk about short sighted? How about short hindsight?

 

Dan,

You misunderstand the word liberal when used in the context of polical theory. "Liberal" in the context that I used it has to do with progressive taxation, workers rights, regulation of businesses as a way to assure that a really free market exists and monopolies do not. Etc Etc.

You are using liberalism in the context of sexual freedom and lack of a moral code. You are using liberalism in the context that "anything goes".

Although the word is the same, these two versions of liberalism have nothing to do with the other. I'm in favor of progressive taxation, but I'm not in favor of the collapse of sexual mores, nor in the Karl Rovian ( a famous conservative) concept that the end justifies the means.

Indeed, the TV network that right now in 2005 that is pushing the envelope in sexuality and "grossness" is Fox. Fox is owned by Rupert Murdock and Murdock is very much involved in day to day operations. Sensationalism has long been his trademark. And Murdock is one of the biggest conservatives in America.

This is why many "liberals" use the term "progressive" now. This is because people like Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh have so distorted the definition of "liberal" that even I hate liberals.

And you are right, some people who believe in progressive taxation also believe in gay marriage. But many do not.

Most social scientists feel that the sexual revolution with a great expansion of sexual freedom came about from the invention of the automobile, the TV and the birth control pill. The sexual revolution did not stem from progressive taxation.

But a "sexual liberal" has zero to do with a "political liberal". I'm the latter and not the former.

 

That makes so much sense!

Let's restrict embryonic stem cell research, basically cripple it, then we can say it's showing no evidence of success.

I understand your plan.

 

Re: I would be proud if the Prius was an American developmen

Let's be clear here;

THERE IS NO LAW RESTRICTING STEM CELL RESEARCH

only the ability to get PUBLIC money to fund it and then only from the FEDERAL government.

STATES (i.e. California and other) can spend all the money that they want to on any type of stem cell research they want.

The last thing you want is for a Federal Government program to be given a whole butt load of money with the purpose of
"see what you can do with these things!"

By the way: Hydrogen is still the only viable long term option to create easily (relatively) transportable condensed energy (i.e. power) source.

An increase in battery technology is a close, and necessary second.

Wind, solar, wave, geothermal, nuclear are good point source energy producers, but would only be effective for our everyday use with a drastic improvement in battery technology.

Al other "alternative" fuels (bio-diesel, frier-diesel, ethanol etc.) ar all just stop gap measures and generally a waste of research resources.

 

Re: I would be proud if the Prius was an American developmen

You mean like the Hoover dam? Or you mean things like the very creation of nuclear physics? Or do you mean like landing on the moon? Or do you mean the building of the interstate highway system? You are right, the feds fail at everything.

The myth that the feds fail at everything is propaganda to get the American public to want smaller and smaller government. Which can only help corporations to be freeer and freeer to get away with anything they want. How about the SCOTUS decision today about private property. Individuals now have to defer to corporations in property rights. It makes one wonder whose country is it anyway.

And as for there being no law....
There is no law against a privately built and paid for interstate highway system either. But it never would have happened.

There is no law against a private individual landing on the moon. It may happen someday, but not for another 100 years.

There is no law against near complete electrification of the USA. Never would have happened without the feds.




And hydrogen will not be a viable anything without massive R&D. That kind of money can only come from the Federal Gov.

And if the US Federal Gov continues to leave stem cell research to those countries whose federal gov is not so short sighted, then "they will get the spoils". So be it. American hegemony is on the way out anyway, thanks to GW, so it might as well be in the sciences too. Our science won't be worth much if the Kansas path to enlightenment spreads anyway.

And as for hydrogen, where do you expect to get the truly massive amounts of electricity needed to make hydrogen?

 

Adult stem cell research has already developed insulin producing tissue from pancreatic stem cells and liver and kidney stem cells taken from cadavers. Those tissues have been implanted in select juvenile and adult diabetics with SPECTACULAR results. In 35% of the case the diabetics have been able to abandon their medication. A couple of Australian doctors, with a grant of only $200K have been able to grow heart, liver, and kidney tissue from ol' factory stem cells. These are just a couple of the more recent success stories regarding adult stem cells. There have been NO such success stories where embryonic stem cells are concerned. None. I'm afraid DanMan is correct, from everything I've seen on the subject.

 

DanMan is right as I pointed out in my follow up post above.

But he won't be in 5 years. And whoever gets there first has a bonanza on their hands.

Sadly for the US, its not apt to be the US.

I did an internet search on adult stem cells and I invite anyone to do this. You will find numerous fundamentalist religious groups touting the wonders of adult stem cells amoung the top ten sites that google finds.

Any thoughts as to why this is true? Could it be that there is an organized group out there that wants embryonic research to falter? And when it does "falter", they have the audacity to suggest its faltering for scientific, and not political, reasons?

 

Re: I would be proud if the Prius was an American developmen

No Prius04, you are right, the Feds don't fail at everything.

When given a VERY specific task they are able to muster corporate America to bring it to fruition.

Hoover Dam - Specific Task - run by businessman (not politicians) the dam came in under budget and on time (this one still amazes me as of late budget overruns and delays seem to be ever present)

Interstate Highways - Specific Task - Built by non-governmental companies

Land on the Moon - Specific task - all parts manufiactured by private companies

So I understand where the argument "all it takes is government money" comes from, but lets continue and look at other things the Government has tried to tackle:
Poverty - people are still poor
Education - people are still stupid, I mean just look at the last two Supreme Court decisions (the one on Pot and the one on Eminent Domain)
Racism - people still hate minorities
Equality - Some people still have more (and ALWAYS will)

Government reearch is only needed in arenas that the private sector won't touch and private companies are spending like crazy on stem cells research as it may prove a boon to their bottom line to develop treatments.

Electicity can be developed in any of the point sources I listed above. Wind, Solar, geothermal, Nucular, (off shore ships utilizing Solar, Wind and Wave power) Hydrogen is just the storage medium.

Who knows someone may find a prcess to make it cheaper with less electricity (go Keanu) just like Aluminum went from the most precious metal in the world to something we don't think twice about just tossing away.

 

Re: I would be proud if the Prius was an American developmen

I was responding to your statement that you don't want to give the feds money.

Of course all of those things were privately implemented, but it was still "butt loads of money that we gave our government" as you put it.

And any future "boat load of money" will also go to private contracters, a good deal of it for hydrogen R&D.

So I'm not sure what you are saying on this last post.


As for poverty and the other things you pointed out. The US had extremely good luck in decreasing poverty if you compare relative wealth in 1880 to 1980. The problem is that around 1980 that progress stopped, and since 2001, significantly reversed. That first period coincided with the growth of "liberalism" with progressive taxation, more and more regulation, and ever bigger government. The second period, from 1980 till now, saw a reversal of that regulation and a much less progressive taxation. And it's not a coincidence that the first period saw so much growth, and the second period stagnation. At least for the middle class.

Someday, Americans will realize how snookered they've been by our media, especially sources like Faux News. I just hope they wake up in time.


And I have no problem with wealth. "Equality" of wealth is communism and I'm a fervent believer in the free market. But the disparity of wealth in this country has badly worsened in the last 20 years, and in the last 5, it has skyrocketed.

And contrary to the billions of dollars that have been spent to snooker the people into thinking so, the Republican party is not the free market party. They are the monopoly party, the big business party, the party of the ruling class.

 

Part of the reason for the change in method of growth is because of the liberal morality. Yes, I will concede, when it comes to economics, even many Republicans are short sighted.

This country was founded on ethics. It was known that we can't have freedom if we can't restrain ourselves. We can't restrain ourselves, if we don't have an inate sense of looking out for our brother man. Man by himself will look out only for himself. I know it is only a movie, but I use Lord of the Flies as an example of what happens to a society left to its own devices.

But we took away our individual checks and balances, and left it to the government. That's how you end up with dictatorships and oligarky, because we allow our own personal freedoms to be given away to government to control us because we can't control ourselves.

Laws in a perfect society are supposed to do only one thing: settle differences of opinion that no right or wrong either way. Stuff like what side of the road should we drive on, so that we don't collide into each other, or get into a stalemate.
Love for our neighbor would and should take care of the moral/ethical issues instead of laws. Unfortunately, we have a hardness of heart, looking only for what we can get for ourselves like hungry dogs. You'll find this in Republicans and Democrats alike, but for different aspects. So then we need the parental government to control us, instead of the parental family.

 

Yea., I really hated to buy foreign., I cannot understand why Detroit has not realized the need for this type of technology in this country. I'm sure we could do it, but it seems they have their heads in the sand again like in the 70's. The US industry just refuses to market a good inexpensive high mileage utilitarian design., opting instead for expensive SUV's and trucks with hybrid options that do not deliver the savings the hybrid technology is capable of. I just don't get it, and they (the US mfg) have lost a loyal customer.

 

$3 billion from the California state government is going into stem-cell research, but that's nothing compared to what is really needed from the federal government to make significant progress. How the hell are a few private citizens expected to contribute anything worthwhile? You are totally ignorant on the costs of medical research, especially bleeding-edge research on new technologies.

Bush is an idiot because he doesn't understand that limiting embrionic stem-cell research does not actually reduce the number of embryoes that are killed -- not even by one! They will all be killed anyway.

 

Think with your brain. If adult stem cells are like embrionic cells but with a much more limited ability to grow into different tissue, how can they possibly be more successful than embrionic cells? At the very worst, they'd have identical success rates. Obviously you are not in possession of accurate facts.

 

Well, if there weren't any federal funding restrictions on embryonic stem cell research (Thanks to the Bush Administration), we would have seen more advances by now.

I'm a medical doctor, and trust me, if you know anything about biology/medicine, you should know that embryonic stem cell can be transformed to ANY human cell or organ. The therapeutic potential is UNLIMITED. Adult stem cells are something that can be harvested from your (adults') bone marrow... and its therapeutic potential is VERY limited.

Anyone who says otherwise is,
(A). Mis-informed
(B). From the FOX news channel.
or
©. Lying through their teeth, cause they love embryos so much?

I simply don't understand this madness. Everyday, I see patients suffering from diabetes, parkinsons, MS, Spinal cord injury etc etc. Tremendous pain and LOWER quality of life in these patients and their loved ones. WHY is it so "sinful" to use embryos to do reseaches to help these poor people, by using the embryos that are going to be "disposed" (=destroyed) anyway by the infertility clinics?

What is really "the culture of life?" How come the Bush Administration and his friends want to save embryos and a "Brain-dead" lady, while ignoring the people in between?

Some of my medical school classmates work in the Veterans Administration's hospitals. I hear their horror stories. Do you know these VA hospitals are being shut down one by one, and their budget & benefit getting slashed by "W"? Is this what he means by "supporting our troops?"

FYI, "Bush-approved" line of stem cells are severely limited and contaminated with rat's genes. They are considered useless by the researchers in this field.

:cussing:

I just don't understand it....