Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

2NR-FKE: 38% thermal efficiency per Toyota Exhibits High-thermal-efficiency 1.5L Engine (page 2) - Nikkei Technology Online
1NZ-FXE: 37% thermal efficiency per Next Prius Will Have Engine Thermal Efficiency of 40% - Nikkei Technology Online

 

One thing is peak efficiency, with FKE reaching 38% (at a certain spot of the BSFC chart) and another completely different is a peak efficiency within a broad area of BSFC for a power band which 1NZ-FXE is very good at. Peak efficiency shouldn't be used to assess engine FE capabilities or evolution, because does not say it all...

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about this. I am not a fan of spider/radar charts because it presumes the eight axis reflect your requirements. For example, here is one of cars I've test driven or bought showing my requirements:

• dynamic cruise control - a PASS/FAIL requirement lacking from the Ioniq Blue test drive car
• MPG - important but all of them are above 39 MPG
• MPGe - ability to use electricity which in Huntsville is cheaper per mile than gas
• collision avoidance - a PASS/FAIL requirement missing from the Ioniq Blue
• price - nice cluster
• noise - the Ioniq was noticeably louder in the cabin, both engine and road noise
• stepped transmission - versus the eCVT
• seats - 4 or 5, pick

Per this spider/radar chart, the 2017 Ioniq Blue totally fails the Wilson family requirements.

Bob Wilson

 

Based on what?
The Korean and European ratings being lower. The North American model is has potentially efficiency improving technology those markets don't get.
Reviewer results; CR gets what are truly abysmal for a hybrid city results from the Prius, and the NA press has only have had short, first drive reviews at this point. Mr. Wilson appears to have gotten a little better out of the Ioniq than his Prime.

Hyundai's history with the Elantra's rating makes the Ioniq's suspect, but they got hit hard in plenalties; the highest such fines until dieselgate. That should keep them honest at this point in time.

Perhaps the Mazda5 came too soon for Americans to appreciate, and the time for the miniminivan is now. The third row in these needs to be stressed as +2 seats for the US, but I was grasping at something to give the Prius v a hook to help it survive here. I now see it doesn't even have the easy of loading sliding rear doors like the Mazda5 and 3 row C-max do. Making a third row a harder sell.

As for internal competition, I think the Rav4h is safe; it was selling more per month out the gate than the v ever did. I don't see Toyota introducing the Prius E-four on the v because of the Rav. So there goes that potential hook. I would think the additional space would protect the Sienna and Highlander; Toyota isn't worried about the AWD Sienna snatching Highlander sales.

The Sienna is around 200 pounds heavier than the Highlander. Pricing has improved for the Highlander hybrid, but it sells worse than the v. I think it is only kept around because the RXh exists to prop it up.

Doesn't Toyota have a trubo/super charger version of the gen4 ICE in the lab? That might save the v in the US. Dropping the 2.5 HSD into it will likely bring the MPG number closer to the Rav4h. Releasing a FWD Rav4h would be lower cost to Toyota, and probably more successful.

Isn't the Aqua in the same segment as the Vitz? A hybrid version of an existing car instead of a different model is the way to go for cost purposes. With low gas prices, I don't see it coming to the US though. Best we can hope for is a Yaris equipped like the rest of the world. Or buying a Yaris badged a Mazda2.

Wouldn't the CVT have a better time staying in that efficient spot though?

 

Except downsize-and-turbocharge is a lie. The only forced induction ZR engine that I'm aware of is the 1.8 liter supercharged one for the upcoming Yaris GRMN, which I'd guess would be designated something like 2ZR-FZE or 8ZR-FZE (or maybe FZS instead, if they add direct injection) based on Toyota's history, but the ZR engine family supports larger displacement, which Toyota favors over forced induction if it's at all possible. A 3ZR-FXE would make sense, is rumored to be coming anyway for the UX 250h (Lexus's variant of the C-HR to replace the CT 200h), and would be cheaper, simpler, and more efficient.

Yes, although the Vitz/Yaris (they're the same car - it's just that it's called the Vitz in Japan, the Yaris in Europe and the US) trades length for height - so it'll be easier to park than the Aqua. My guess is, Toyota sees enough US demand for the Prius c to continue paying the annual certification costs, so if the Aqua gets discontinued (which I suspect it will be, given how many refreshes it's had without a replacement), a Yaris Hybrid is happening here.

 

The 1.4 turbo in my Sonic works for me, but the scangauge does show some very slight gains for trading boost for rpms by downshifting from 6th to 5th on the long, steep hills here.
Then most people can't be bothered to learn the best way to drive their car no matter what is under the hood.

Yeah, I see that a 2L might be the right size for a new v. The other factor is to address weight. The v managed to gain 300 pounds over the Prius.

I see the Yaris iA is selling much better than the Yaris. Last month it beat out the Yaris and Prius c combined. I can't filter out how much that is the more efficient drivetrain from it being a sedan or possible incentives, though. Toyota has dropped the 4 speed from the 2017 Corolla. I see the CVT coming to the next Yaris here.

This is a low margin segment. Combined with low fuel prices, that might lead Toyota to skip the Yaris hybrid. Personally, I think they'll bring it, named as a Prius c or not, because Honda will eventually bring out something based on the Jazz hybrid.

 

Electric car mode:

1. Unplug
2. Turn ON
3. Drive like you stole it
4. Turn OFF
5. Plug-in

Pretty simple since electric miles are 2/3d gas miles in Huntsville and even less when using 'free' chargers.

I appreciate the fine art of efficient driving driven by the combination of ICE and control laws. I did that with over 11 years of Prius ownership. But technology has moved on and EV mode has "upset the board."

Bob Wilson

 

We got to keep nagging Bob into PV solar.

.

 

My 2.2 cobalt is capable of 50mpg at 55mph in hot weather, that's pulling close to 165hp, I have no doubt Toyo could bore out a 1.8 to 1.9 or 2 liters, lower peak compression slightly moving the engines operating characteristics toward favoring wot more than the 1.8 along with using the Gen IV tech it would be fine and likely still gain MPGs over the current gen.

That said power means little to me, Toyo could Prime the v and soup up the EV side like a Volt if they wanted to go to a bigger 3 row chassis and be more Sporty.

 

Sungevity pretty much told me that unless I really want it, don't bother.

 

My comment went beyond just efficient driving

A single speed EV makes pushing the go peddle a simpler proposition to under stand, but many EVs also have multiple drive modes and levels of regenerative braking for the driver to master.

The v is 300 pounds heavier than the Prius, and can be loaded up with more weight. Our talk of larger engines isn't about power increase for just the sake of it.

At this point, I think the only thing that will save the v is Toyota deciding the cost of offering it isn't a burden with the models sales in other markets.

 

the one thing that Hyundai / Kia did with the hybrid drivetrain in the Ionoq / Niro is tthat he cars always start moving under EV power, this means less clutch wear in the DCT, no judder on moving off etc, so a lot of the issues of using a DCT on other models have been mitigated, it is still to early to say conclusively how well they have been mitigated, but I have done 13,000 miles since November and no issues with the DCT at all

one thing I am noticing on the dark side is for the US their seems to be a higher percentage of ex prius drivers than other countries looking at / buying the Ioniq, this could be the prius is better established, people in the US are more aware of running cost, or they want to keep with a hybrid car

the other thing I have noticed was US member seem to keep a car longer than us in Europe and other countries, this seems to be down to the difference in finance offered to buy cars

32 Ioniqs on fuelly now Hyundai Ioniq MPG - Actual MPG from 32 Hyundai Ioniq owners

so economy data is starting to build but still not really enough but it is starting to look not far off the prius

 

That is a very good point Bluecar1. I just was unsure about the technology since we do keep our cars longer. My wife and I look for cars we will use for at least 10 years so our decision needs to be based on repair-ability and longevity.

n=30 is just enough to start seeing a trend. However fuelly doesn't seem to differentiate between the Blue and SEL/Limited models. The Blue gets better MPG than the SEL or Limited which could drag down the whole average. On our test drive 54 mpg was pretty impressive when I was not driving eco minded.

 

It is further complicated by the fact that manufacturers use different trim designations in different markets

 

I opted out of purchasing a new car (awaiting my number to come up on the Tesla M3).
So, I spent a week looking at used vehicles. During the search, I visited the Hyundai dealer, and saw for the first time an Ioniq SEL. WOW. I was impressed ... whereas the lower priced one completely turned me off.

I predict, in time, if driver reports remain positive and no serious faults are discovered .... the Ioniq will eventually "eat the Prius lunch" until such time as Toyota redesigns the Prius.

 

Could you tell us your opinion on the differences between the two trim levels?

 

did you drive it?

 

Two good questions.
The last one first: ... no I didn't drive either. I would like to, but I'm not buying, and I just hate to test something knowing that I will not make a purchase.

The SEL was blue, and perhaps that was a factor. It looked rich and well finished. The fit and finish was very good. I liked the added horizontal trim on the side that was color coordinated with front trim. The wheel covers on the SEL are FAR superior to the lesser model.The interior looked much more plush and finished. The lesser model one looked cheap, but it may have been the color (white) ... but the upholstery is nothing special. Actually, the blue exterior on the SEL really looks much better than I expected.

Changing the subject:
The Ioniq appears to be bigger than the Prius. It looks substantial. It's an illusion ... have you seen the demonstration: <_____> and >_____< which ask which line is longer?(hard to illustrate on the computer). I suspect the tail lights on the Prius create the illusion and make it appear more narrow. Maybe not ....but something does.
The side profile of the Ioniq is quite appealing. Those that have read my post before know that I dislike the profile of the Prius with the high-point moved forward. The G2 had the forward high point and I was delighted when they moved it back on the G3. Obviously it was not done for aerodynamics ... the Prius and the Ioniq have the identical coefficient of drag (I know there are other factors)

Just my opinion.

 

I did drive the base model Ioniq when searching for my new car (now a '16 Prius v).

We drove the Base model, the "Blue", in white. I did not like the color but the car was comfortable and was fantastic to drive! Felt like a normal car and that is appealing to the average consumer who isn't a hybrid driver already. The base model gets the best mpg since it doesn't have all the excess creature comforts. It has more combined horsepower than the Prius, 138 vs 121, and since they weigh just about the same it is quite noticeable when accelerating. The Sport mode allows you to stay in gear longer and control the power better. The CVT in the prius just whines when you thrash it. The Sport mode is pretty awesome to drive and allows you to have fun while driving a hybrid. I don't get that feeling with my Prius.

I did sit in, and play with, a SEL in the show room. It has a nicer looking interior and the heated seats are nice. Probably worth the $2000 or so more for the added comfort and slight loss of MPG. It does look a bit sharper than the base model but we were interested in cargo, comfort of ride and mpg so the SEL model wasn't a need.

I think this car will be great value 3 years off lease with low miles. New is a hard sell when there are gently used Prius that get similar mpg.

 

Well, this video shows the Prius hatchback ahead in the 0-100km/h run.

We've been told Hyundai is more powerful and more economical. Both statements just don't keep up in the real world.