Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

I will agree....where Toyota is making enough cars to recover cost involved beside Government boosters

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

I guess being an older gent, I can't recall the last time I filled up with gas and the stop wasn't naturally coordinated with some other more urgent task at the same location. The gas tank has far more range than my tank. Different perspectives, both valid.

Yesterday's task was trucking about 15 4' by 4" logs to a recycling place. Next week a mower to get the blade sharpened. That is why I love the v, the utility it gives for tasks like that just isn't going to be matched by the mini-EVs or the high lift over trunk of the hatchbacks or sedans. Plus at 5 years old I just don't have to be as careful about a possible ding as I would a new car. I've online shopped, configured, pondered, test drove and just never found something that better fit my current needs even with no cost constraints.

 

I, as a technically minded person, have a hard time imagining why anyone who truly understands how both of these transmissions work would prefer a DSG. But I do understand that some might simply prefer what they are used to hearing and feeling.

That's basically what I think too. I have seen very little evidence of brand loyalty among Prius owners. But I think there is a little bit of Prius loyalty, because some feel indebted to the car that most prominently pioneered clean and efficient alternative drivetrains into the mainstream, and motivated other manufacturers to accelerate their efforts to catch up.

By the way, I have now seen enough technical info and real world data that I think with about 95% probability that the Ionic has more or less caught up with the Prius. The Ioniq is not a "Prius killer", but a worthy competitor. Being technically good does not necessarily guarantee sales success; for that, and for long term reliability, we will have to wait a few years to find out.

In the meantime, I would encourage potential Prius buyers to also put the Ioniq on their "cars to consider" list, even though I am sure the vast majority have already done so.

I think Prius owners tend to be less brand loyal, and more loyal to their own conscience, more loyal to their own independent thinking, and more loyal to their own good judgement.

 

more loyal to priuschat.

 

The Prius was the light in the window that kept burning.

 

Danny will be mailing you a check shortly.

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i should be paying him for this kind of entertainment. even with all the glitches, it works better than entune.

 

Careful, - that check is post-dated

yes - continuing with Toyota's Prius program (even as pre-bankruptcy GM was aborting its neonatal hybrids) ended up being a stroke of good luck for Toyota, in large part because gas prices hit all-time record highs. Nowdays, fracking, politics, & refined techniques at market manipulation war against efficient vehicles.
The Prius was a sort of - Late 90's/early 2000's crap shoot - & the investment paid off in large part due to other manufacturer's neglect, choosing in stead to do status quo manufacturing. Tesla is enjoying the same advantage that Prius got .... where the other manufacturers were busier with status quo manufacturing . Playing catch-up is a bitch. Staying ahead of the auto manufacturers that got caught flat footed - and are now busy trying to catch up is equally difficult too. That means Toyota is pulling double duty. They're trying to stay ahead of the likes of Hyundai, & they're trying to catch up to the likes of Tesla & even GM's Bolt.
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Fred_H said - "The Ioniq is not a "Prius killer", but a worthy competitor. Being technically good does not necessarily guarantee sales success; for that, and for long term reliability, we will have to wait a few years to find out."

I completely agree, but Hyundai is really botching the US roll-out. Every deadline has been missed; promotions have been touted .... then no follow-up; and reliable data is slow to come in. I''m still interested, but the interest needs to be stimulated.

I was once a very loyal Prius follower, but the new model is not even on my short-list. So for now, it's Ioniq ... or I sit out this model year in hopes that Prius can make some fundamental design changes that would bring me back. It could very easily be a "few years to find out."

 

From a technical perspective, the Ioniq's DSG might have lower torque losses than the Prius's eCVT. Then while a CVT can best match gear ratio to engine output, that is only within the finite range of ratios it has. Since we have gone beyond 4 speeds in step type transmissions, it is likely a 6 speed DSG has multiple overdrive gears. This could mean the car's final drive ratio while cruising or coasting, and where it it spends much of the time, is more efficient than what a CVT could do.

The Prius is a well rounded, family car in terms of efficiency and utility. The iconic shape of the gen 2 and 3 was simply form following function. The gen4 appears to be deviating from that with odd styling just for the sake of being different. Efficiency is even better, but Toyota might still be thinking a hybrid needs to look weird to be a success. Just look at the Rav4 hybrid to see that isn't the case, and the next Camry hybrid could do equally well if it solves the trunk question.

The Ioniq might look normal, but it is still the well balanced package that made the gen2 a winner.

Minus the per post fees.

This appears to be a Hyundai issue, and not an Ioniq one. The company was caught unprepared for crossover demand with a mostly car line up. Then they fired the US CEO who was telling them they needed more crossovers for the US market. Internal turmoil likely has lead to several things slipping in terms of deadlines.

Reliability data is going to be slow coming in on any new model. The Ioniq and Niro being out in the rest of the world for a year will hopefully mean less new model issues for the American models.

 

saw a lot of niro advertising the past week. btw, i read that toyota has taken a huge hit so far this year due to lower sedan sales in the u.s.

 

Saw the same headline about Toyota's sedan sales, and it appears their SUVs and trucks aren't compelling enough to cover the slack.

The Niro sold over 2000 in its first month. The ads are easily better than the Prius's.

 

Admittedly, it's been a few years since the last time I checked. But when I did, I found no other cars with stepped ratio transmissions that could match the maximum overall effective gear ratio of the Prius at 60 mph, including cars with 8 speed transmissions. The only car that even came close had a torque-monster 8 liter, 10 cylinder engine.

The DSG transmission taken by itself undoubtedly has a much better efficiency, but I think this is roughly equalized by the Prius HSD's ability to more closely match the effective gear ratio to the optimum operating line of the ICE. Depending on conditions, one or the other might be more effective for a specific driving profile. Up to this point I would consider it roughly a draw.

But even if the Ionic DSG has a slight overall efficiency advantage, there is one more factor that tips the scale far towards the Prius' power split transmission: the elegantly simple mechanical construction. I haven't actually counted, but I'd bet it has only a small fraction of the number of parts that the DSG has. The HSD has proven to be of legendary reliability, robust, and has a consistent smoothness that rivals that of luxury cars.

The Ioniq DSG is in comparison very complicated. That doesn't necessarily mean it must be less reliable, in fact it is entirely possible that it could turn out to be more reliable. But it hasn't proven itself yet. And in general, some past DSGs have proven to be more finicky, with inconsistent clutch engagement and requiring more repairs and maintenance. So until it proves itself, a little skepticism is not unreasonable.

That doesn't mean I would rule out an Ioniq only because of the transmission. As always, this is just one of many big and little differences that each must weigh the importance of for himself.

 

DSG has friction clutch plates doesn't it? Do these last 100s of thousands of miles like the Prius HSD or do they wear out and need replacing?

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

Like the clutch packs in other automatics, the clutch plates should last the 'life' of the car. There is wear, but the electronic control should mean far less than on the clutch of a manual transmission.

I've driven automatics for decades, and have never needed a repair to one during the time it was in my possession. Like cars in general, the reliability has gotten better over time.

Can something go wrong? Yes, there is plenty of parts in a car that can fail, and design flaws and production errors can never be totally eliminated. Having few moving parts in the transaxle didn't prevent the recall of the Prius because a software bug just had the car power off while driving it. The important thing is how the company handles such issues.

 

Acura Trans recalled at 30k, dealer inspected, receipt saying no fix necessary, extended warranty, failed while 250 miles from home with exact fault inspected for at 65k just out of warranty. Taken to same dealer that inspected it. Quoted $2k more than AAMCO.

Auto trans do fail and how you handle it does matter. One reason I'm not a Honda owner.

 

Standard non DSG auto transmissions for cars don't usually have clutch plates. They use fluid coupling, not friction plates. Completely different and not comparable.

Automatic transmission - Wikipedia

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

The photographs of the cutaway transmissions in your link show the clutch plates.

 

I'm pretty sure he meant to post:

The horrible torque converter on the left is pretty grim. My understanding is the clutch plates are the mechanism that 'shifts' the planetary gears to effect a stepped operation. <GACK>

The original Model T transmission used a similar principle:

Bob Wilson

 

Offhand, looks like there are five sets of clutch plates in that ZF trans.