Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

Bob - I have heretofore expressed praise and appreciation for your analysis, but in this case, I am unconvinced.

I will conceded, you may well be right, but I don't understand where you got some of your numbers. Forget the Ioniq, we will agree, it is inferior, but the Malibu appears to be just as much a competitor to the Prius, or the Volt to me. Jeff N mentioned dropping the Malibu innards in a Cruze, now that makes more sense as a competitor.

Granted, the bottom line fuel efficiency (that you cite) is not as good in the Malibu as the Prius, but there are many more factors to consider. I think the analysis will need to wait for the specifications to be released to come to a final judgment. Except for the slightly lower fuel efficiency, the Malibu might just be the greatest buy on the market when considering size, comfort, convenience, and all the other features that will be touted. Plus, it is attractive, especially compared to some of the others.

Personally, I would not consider a Malibu, simply because it is GM. But I will say, If GM can sell the Malibu at the same price as the Prius (or Ioniq, or Volt), I'd agree, it might be a competitor. But I still argue, overall, the Malibu (as pictured) is in a class with the Camry, the Fusion, the Sonata, and possibly several others. If you forget price, there are many contenders, BMW, Audi and others.

 

In one respect, we agree:

Actually I'm interested in the Pacifica because it may finally show up with tolerable MPG, excellent miniVan access, and interior space. It is the hybrid miniVan I've been looking for ever since I heard of the Estima.

As for the Malibu hybrid, it appears to equal if not exceed the Inoiq with both running 17" wheels (yet still missing the 17" wheel Prius MPG.) So the Ioniq and Malibu are really competition in the 'marginal' hybrid market because neither on 17" wheels is even close to the Prius. In effect, they are 'bait' for the Prius-skeptics, like this thread.

There are a number of Gen-1/Gen-2 generation technology hybrids finally showing up from GM and Hyundai. Add to that VW, Chrysler and for that matter, anyone else (aka. VW) who wants to sell in the USA/North American market. But every one of them shows the same pattern of Gen-1/Gen-2 limitations those of us who still drive the 2001-03 Prius fully know . . . and mitigate.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob - Thanks for your comment. All of us have different views, and that is OK. I, with knowledge and forethought, gave up 10 + mpg when I traded my 2010 Prius (which I really enjoyed) for a 2015 Avalon Hybrid. A magnificent car that does so many things better than the Prius .... except for fuel efficiency. That was ok with me. I think it is a beautiful car, and looks somewhat like several others, including the Malibu (as pictured). Every aspect, ride, comfort, seats, handling, performance, are all superb.

Some have written appearance is unimportant. I am not in that camp.
Some have said not having a spare tire, or a flat lay-down rear seat, are both deal breakers. I knowingly gave up the fold down rear seat.
Some want a vehicle that is a "standout" (you no doubt read that discussion). I'm a visual sort of guy, so "standout" to me is a visual term expressing exceedingly ugly or attractive to me. It is not a term I associate with quality, but others do. That's ok too.

Giving everyone their right to like and dislike every aspect of a vehicle, and not finding fault with anyone that disagrees, I find pictures of the new Prius (that is all I have seen), absolutely unattractive. A negative "standout." Fortunately, I am not in the market so I recognize that my opinion really doesn't matter. But I love the discussion, and keep returning to PriusChat to read what others are thinking and writing.

I hope you will continue with your analysis. Some writers seem to fear advances the competition is making. It would seem to me to be inevitable that eventually, others will catch up with the Prius. Right or wrong, I have previously expressed an opinion that 50 to 55 mpg seems to be somewhat like a barrier, much like the sound barrier in aircraft. It can be exceeded, but not without great cost (at least with todays technology).

I'm rambling, so I will quit. Thanks again for your comments, analysis and comments.

 

i don't think it's a fear of competitive advances, just tiresome pre production hype. some buy into it, others wait for actual data. personally, i'm only disappointed that the alt fuel revolution is taking so long, no matter the color or stripe.
when you look at monthly sales, it is what it is.

 

But how much of the hype is from the competition or from bored journalists and bloggers?

 

I'm OK with this:

Everyone has a list of priorities which is why we no longer subscribe to Consumer Reports: Consumer Report responds to criticism of their review | Page 7 | PriusChat

• Golf cheat-diesel with worse MPG got a higher score than the 'Prius four' Gen-3

When I analyzed the "Prius c" score, it was obvious Consumer Reports have (had?) a different ranking than I was prepared to 'pay for.' Their experts gave value to things I don't and ignored what I do value but to a greater or lesser extent, this is true with all car reviewers.

We've had former Prius owners who downgraded because the seats. We've seen Prius owners downgrade to cheat-diesels because the wanted faster acceleration and swerve-ability. Others decided to plug-in and avoid visits to gas stations. I'm OK with their choices. Just trying to claim high MPG when every basic engineering analysis of the drivetrain specs says 'No Way' just rubs me the wrong way.

Hyundai Sonata hybrid has been a good first effort and the market has rewarded them. The future Ioniq and Malibu hybrids may also wind up doing well. But the press releases suggest they are at least one generation behind the 2016 Prius.

Bob Wilson

ps. Added the Sonata hybrid to the table:

	model	ICE hp	EV hp	EV/ICE	City	Hwy
1	2010 Honda Insight	88	13	15%	40	43
2	2003 Honda Civic	85	13	15%	40	43
3	2015 Hyudai Sonata	154	51	33%	40	44
4	2016 Hyundai IONIQ	104	41	39%	48	46.8
5	2001 Prius	58	40	69%	42	41
6	2016 Prius	96	71	74%	54	50
7	2016 Prius Eco	96	71	74%	58	53
8	2010 Prius	98	80	82%	51	48
9	2016 Malibu Hybrid	122	101	83%	48	45
10	2004 Prius	76	67	88%	48	45

 

The CR chart is very telling. I cancelled my CR subscription just about a year ago, and haven't missed it a bit. I originally subscribed, thinking they were objective, and their test would be valid. But then I started to understand that some of their test were slanted, not necessarily because of bias, just the way they conduct their test. In 115,000 miles in my 2010 Prius, I doubt I had 3-4 tank fills that were 44 mpg. My other complaint, is they would test, say a toaster, or a washing machine, but you never could find in the store the model they tested.

This will be an interesting year automoaively, as well as politically. There is no telling where either is going to finish the year as a winner. I especially like Trollbait's comments about journalist. I feel like most of our contention, and mis-information about most every subjects, (especially politically) is caused by the media. Contention and conflict sells unfortunately.

Once again, I appreciate and enjoy the discussion.

 

Yes. it seems so. From our Nissan Leaf members, the EPA range seems a realistic match if some highway is included, quite conservative for city-medium speed driving. But on EVs many things could make a difference in range...
The info anyway was relevant in comparison with Leaf, to ascertain what car they are targeting and to guess an approximate size of the battery: something in the region of 30 kW seems to be at the stake.

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Today video released by Hyundai, with some illustration of the ECO-DAS and the "Predictive Energy Management" (starts min 7:12) that make use of on-board indications for coasting (min 7:52) based on the route programmed in the navigation system. Curious to known how this systems works....

 

Perhaps like the cheat-diesels?

Bob Wilson

 

Here we are what i was looking for: ther's a SOC management on the basis of the predicted road's altitude changes, seemingly integrating the info stored in the navigation system with a sensor/radar of sort recognizing if ahead there is any uphill/downhill drive. Quite interesting, something new as far as i'm aware...

Google Traduttore



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Prices and trims in South Korea, not better defined:

Hyundai Ioniq I – 22,900,000-23,200,000 Won
Hyundai Ioniq I+ – 23,900,000-24,200,000 Won
Hyundai Ioniq N – 24,900,000-25,200,000 Won
Hyundai Ioniq N+ – 26,200,000-26,500,000 Won
Hyundai Ioniq Q – 27,500,000-27,800,000 Won

That is from 19,000 to 23,000 USD. Can't find easely what a Prius gen 3 costs in Korea, it seems in the area of 28,000 USD, but maybe someone more skilled in internet search can help for the comparison.

Read more: Hyundai Ioniq exterior-interior, tech specs revealed

 

The three Prius Liftback trim MSRPs in Korea are listed here:
http://m.toyota.co.kr/showroom/prius_04.html

Prius S - 41,300,000 Won
Prius M - 37,800,000 Won
Prius E - 31,400,000 Won

The price for the Prius E translates to about $26,300 US dollars. This confirms my impression that Hyundai is selling the Ioniq cheaply to try to drive up their market share in the hybrid space. There may also be some import tariffs and the like included in the Prius pricing in Korea. I don't know.

 

Thanks for add Jeff, well it's not strange, i see Hyundai price politics all over the world are quite aggressive. Moreover, it seems Korea is not a market fond of hybrids...

Got finally the page of the full specs for the 5 trims; in actual facts i was basically interested in seeing how many trims could show the 52,7 MPG mark, 3 out of 5 as it seems:

Full specs here:
현대자동차 공식 홈페이지 (Google translate does'nt seems to work here)

Hyundai Ioniq I , 15" 195/65 - 52,7 mpg
Hyundai Ioniq I+ , 15" 195/65- 52,7 mpg
Hyundai Ioniq N , 15" 195/65 - 52,7 mpg

Hyundai Ioniq N+ , 17" 225/45 - 47,5 mpg
Hyundai Ioniq Q , 17" 225/45 - 47,5 mpg

 

They just have two efficiency ratings -- one for 15" wheels and another for 17".

I also noticed that Google translate had trouble working with that page if you use translate.google.com but if you use Google's Chrome browser it will automatically offer to translate pages and in this case it works with Hyundai's page. Much of the content is pre-generated images rather than text so those are not automatically translated but the specification data towards the bottom of that long page are given as character text and so are automatically translated. Additionally, you can manually translate the pre-generated images in Korean using Google translate's smartphone apps.

 

The complete specs for the tires, with such a huge difference in FE, are then, from that page:

Michelin ENERGY SAVER AS 195/65R15 91T - Rolling Resistance Coefficient (RRC) = 2 - Wet performance (G) = 4

Michelin PRIMACY MXM4 225/45R17 91V - Rolling Resistance Coefficient (RRC) = 4 - Wet performance (G) = 3

Not quite into this type of classification for RRC and G.... anyway...




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Oh Gosh, looking in that page, just came across that revision of rating:

From google traslate:

카파 1.6GDi HEV (15" 타이어)
The government reported fuel consumption - combined 22.4km / ℓ (city center: 22.5km / ℓ, Highway: 22.2km / ℓ)
Recently, due to enhanced fuel economy measure fuel consumption it has been downward traditional way fuel is calculated as shown below
Composite 23.4km / ℓ (city center: 23.3km / ℓ, Highway: 23.5km / ℓ)
CO2 emissions: 69 I Displacement: 1,580cc I curb weight: 1,380 I 6 dan DCT (1 ratings)

That is, it went from 52,7 MPG to 55 MPG combined

카파 1.6GDi HEV (17" 타이어)
The government reported fuel consumption - combined 20.2km / ℓ (city center: 20.4km / ℓ, Highway: 19.9km / ℓ)
Recently, due to enhanced fuel economy measure fuel consumption it has been downward as shown below the fuel efficiency of the existing scheme
Composite 21.0km / ℓ (city center: 21.2km / ℓ, Highway: 20.9km / ℓ)
CO2 emissions: 78 I Displacement: 1,580cc I curb weight: 1,410 I 6 dan DCT (1 ratings)

That is, it went from 47,5 MPG to 49,4 MPG combined

To be clarified.....

 

I suspect what they are saying is that the 2016 rating is 52.7 mpg (22.4 km/l) but that under older rules it would have been 55 mpg.

South Korea seems to have tightened their fuel economy testing rules in 2013 (after Hyundai improperly reported US EPA estimates). My guess is that the higher 55 mpg estimate is under the pre-2013 rules and 52.7 mpg is the estimate under today's rules. Today's Korean rules seem to match the US EPA estimates or could be just fractionally more conservative.

 

I feel you're right Jeff, altough the "recently" is a bit misleading, it could be the date you're referring to.
Which is interesting for the comparison with the Corean Prius gen 3 rated at 49,4 mpg i guess with the old rules. An 11% improvement for 3 trims out of 5 and equal for the remaining 2 trims with the 17". And we don't know if the korean Prius gen3 have been tested with the 15" or 17"....

 

When a minor input variable tweak results in a large output swing like this, it suggest the test article is on the edge of a knee in the curve.

A documented knee can be very useful but one discovered by non-technical operators can lead to 'user expectation' issues.

Bob Wilson

 

100 miles Ev range under the EPA will be a decent seller if Hyundai has managed to get the before credits price to $30k or lower. The current long range Leaf is a little above $34k.

Interesting about the nav enhanced efficient driving. There was a news about one of the German car companies working on this a few years ago. Then Ford's current hybrids will also learn your home, work, and other common destinations.The car will use more electric propulsion when approaching those locations in order to have more buffer space to charge up during the next warm up cycle on restart.

That is the only unknown about the Korea ratings; is the road load testing rules. So it sounds like the Ioniq might be tested under a more conservative set of rules there like the gen4, and other new cars, are with the new EPA rules.

 

The Korean gen 3 Prius estimate of 49.4 mpg (US gallons) is using the new rules. It is the Prius estimate presently shown at Toyota's Korean website. I think it is very likely to be base on 15 inch tires since that is the standard Prius tire size.


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How do you account for the large efficiency gap between the gen 3 Prius Liftback and the Lexus CT200h? The 2016 CT200h is rated as 42 mpg EPA combined versus 50 for the Liftback.

One difference -- the CT200h comes standard with 17 inch tires instead of the Prius that comes standard with 15 inch tires. A few years ago, GM claimed that the 3rd gen Prius in wind tunnel tests was .30 drag instead of Toyota's .25 drag claim (Car and Driver reported .26 for Prius with 15 inch tires) if you put 17 inch tires on the Prius.

Otherwise, both vehicles use the same engine and transaxle and weight about the same. The CT200h claims .29 drag but I don't know the total drag area vs the Prius.

 

isn't the lexus heavier?