Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

Toyota is on the conservative side, I guess they could have squeezed more hp of the car (20-30) or so, keeping the MPG same from the last gen. But their goal is to improve on the MPG and keeping it reliable. Maybe those 20 or 30 hp would have been fun but what with the battery and the component life - in short - would it be worth it? Hyundai apparently uses full motor power and taxes the battery more - that might introduce some heat problems in some cases, esp. in the warm climates, but I hope they have tested that. And what with the extremely cold temperatures? We will have to wait and see.

Don't have to worry about reliability as much as Toyota/Lexus because it's Hyundai and nobody expects them to be perfect - they are cheap, not the worst reliability wise, have OK-ish build quality and so on.

http://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/2014vds-1.JPG

 

We don't know about the electricity supply either.

With only a single motor, the system is fundamentally limited.

 

"Within the engine, class-leading thermal efficiency of 40% is achieved, while the head and block is split for optimized cooling. Plus, the 200 bar high pressure 6-hole direct fuel injector further improves fuel consumption and CO₂ emissions.

Alongside this, the Lithium Ion Polymer Battery delivers outstanding charge and discharge performance, optimizing output from the high voltage motor and allowing for rapid regeneration. Controlling power distribution is a hybrid-exclusive Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT), which presents a dynamic driving experience unique to IONIQ. Class-leading power transmission efficiency of 95.7% delivers a prompt response, acceleration performance and smooth gear changes to delight drivers with handling alongside the hybrid’s efficiency."






http://globalpr.hyundai.com/prCenter/news/newsView.do?dID=5417

 

There are 2 motors, a mg in between the transmission and engine with clutch to each, and a starter motor. This is not honda IMA.Max power or charge from the mg is 35 kw (46.9 hp), so it is likely it can add as much power as the battery can provide up to that 35kw. The gen III prius battery is 27 kw,(36 hp) and I would expect this one to provide more power. The key is to shift the dct to the right gear to get the engine to peak horsepower likely around 5000 rpm then they are additive. If the battery and electronics can provide the 47 hp then it will be 152 hp (47 motor + 105 engine), but I'm guessing it is is lower but at least 141 hp (36 + 105)

On the gen IV prius we don't know battery power but we can guess its at least the gen III's 27 kw. Unlike the hyundai system, the two motor system for hsd type eCVT is more limiting in power. They relabeled I'm guessing to give acual power which is 15.7 Kw (21 hp) it can supply when the engine is giving full power. Remember engine power dictates rpm, which dictates how much power must flow from mg1 to mg2. My guess is at peak power rpm (Its 5200 rpm form gen III, don't know for gen II) their is a lot of power flowing and electronics and mg2 is going to limit battery power and there will be power losses here.

Is it a problem? Probably not at all. The prius trains its driver not to use inefficient full power by giving the engine note an ugly whine I doubt many will use the ioniq at high power levels either. At lower engine power levels prius can use its full battery power. It would be nice if toyota had given you more headroom for power, but its not like the current prius buyers use it.

Hopefully soon we will get some gen IV prius benchmarks and more test drives. My guess is power levels are better than gen III, and the suspension is markedly improved.

Ioniq will be for a different group of drivers. I'm sure it will be less less refined and reliable than the prius, but hopefully will get great gas milage, and will add a little fun to drive and hit a younger demographic. I think the ioniq phev is the more important car of this line up. There plug power can be used for those low speed acceleration portions that the dct is not as good as a hsd.

 

I've said it before .... I really appreciate the discussion above. You guys all convey so much information, and for us non-engineers, I love reading and learning.

OK. That said. A "stupid" question. - Both Toyota and Hyundai claim an ICE with 40% thermal efficiency. What is "Thermal efficiency?"
As I have wondered about it, I've decided I have no clue. At first I thought that perhaps it implied the ICE produces 40% of the potential energy (work) in a given quantity of gasoline. I don't think that is it. The word "thermal" must imply some heat potential that translates to energy (work).

Help me, and I suspect others, understand. To a layman, 40% seems low. Do rotary ICE, with less internal friction, have a higher thermal efficiency? What about diesels, or turbine? OTOH, and electric motor is high. Correct?



Merged.

That 3/4 rear view really appeals to me. It will be interesting to see the actual vehicle in person, and evaluate the exterior as a whole, and not just a photo of one angle.

 

No you have it right. At its best these engines turn 40% of the energy in gasoline into rotational motion. That is as high as we have every had with normally aspirated gasoline engines. These are as good as it gets. The prius has a wide sweet spot on the engine, and the psd keeps it in its efficient mode.

Rotary engines are a lot less efficient. IT is hard to get compression high enough. Toyota has a turbocharged di gasoline engine in the lab that is 45% efficient. Diesels like the vw tdi's are about 42%, Volvo has one for a truck that is about 50% efficient. The huge slow moving ones on ships can even be more efficient than that.

For turbines we get great efficiency from combined cycle. This is where you rotate a tubine with energy, then use the heat from the exhaust to boil water and turn a steam turbine. We are a little over 60% there, but you need space.

Yes electric motors can be 95% efficient. That is why electric motors are so popular if you have easy access to electricity.

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In addition to the "Like" I also thank you austingreen for the explanation.

BTW, I wish in addition to "Like" there was also an "I agree" and a simple "Thanks." In this case, I can't say I agree, because I do not have the knowledge, but I certainly "like" the explanation, and "I thank you."

 

Yes, and if the starter is like the one in the Sonata hybrid, it is also the alternator for the car.

The rotary are less fuel efficient, but they have a higher power to weight ratio than piston engines. This could make them a good candidate for use in a PHEV where the designer can trade some CS fuel efficiency for less space to give to the ICE.

 

I owned a 1985 RX-7 with the 13B engine. Fantastic car. I loved the rotary. I have read that Mazda has not given up on the rotary and continues to work on it. Racing beat has done a lot of work on multi- rotors, and achieved tremendous power. Somewhere I read about a small, grapefruit size rotary that produced a lot of power for it's size. Some time back on another threads I questioned a small rotary, running at a constant (most efficient) rpm, turning a generator. That sounds so logical to me. If more power is needed, connect 2, 3 or 4 small, grapefruit size rotors.

Remember, I am not an engineer. It just seems like it should work.

 

It did work in the Audi A1 E-tron PHEV. It had a 0.25L rotary for its range extender in serial hybrid operation. The entire genset sat between the rear wheels, and the car lost no cabin or cargo space in comparison to its ICE sibling. The single rpm was dropped during development because the constant, unchanging note could get on the nerves. Instead, they used 3 preset rpms to match ICE noise to vehicle speed. There were over a dozen test cars out on the roads before the recession came along and shelved them.

I don't know what plans Audi has for it now, but the rotary was going to be a tough sell to management. The ICE's specialization made it higher cost than adopting some piston model that was already mass produced. BMW didn't make a new ICE for the i3REX, but took one of their motorcycle mills for the job.
Audi A1 E-Tron Concept – Review – Car and Driver

 

I will stick with the Prius,even it it should turn out the Ioniq has better Fuel economy.
It won't be by much !
Hyundai can't do magic anymore than Toyota can .
The Prius benefit is that it has proven to be very reliable,the Ioniq has yet to do that,but it's a good thing Toyota finally will have real competition to deal with !

 

Agree. All first (and even second) generation cars have a ton of quirks. Maybe Ioniq will be better but this has been true with any sofware driven product - be it car, mobilephone, computer, etc.

But I also like the ability to choose. So far the choice was along the lines of: "What color Prius should I buy?"

 

I can't disagree with either civicdriver or arescec. Toyota has a wonderful reputation, and I have enjoyed problem free driving for years with a Toyota product. In fact, I am driving a new 2015 Toyota product now.

That said, the new Prius is an all new vehicle too. A first generation with a new platform, and mostly new mechanical appliances.
Unfortunately, and each of us has our own opinion, the new Prius has a look that "only a mother can love."

I'm not in the market, so it really makes no difference what I think, but Hyundai's sell a lot of cars here in the mountain west, and Consumer Reports rates the brand very high. How that will translate to the Ioniq will remain to be seen. But I do like the exterior appearance. BTW, I think Electron would have been a better name that Ioniq.

 

Ioniq sound a bit like those air ionizers or dry washing machines. Agreed on that one.
I still say I like Prius 2016 design for what it is - extremely unique and not even bad - just different. Wasn't it the same with the 2010 when it came out? Reading the comments I must say that response was about the same

 

I suspect the IONIQ will eventually have a niche and like the Sonata, be a good addition to the market place. Certainly, the Sonata has show how 'long in the tooth' the Camry hybrid has become. But I still have a problem with 'PowerPoint' or 'Press Release' engineering. So I'm patient and recommend caution until we get the USA EPA metrics.

Bob Wilson

 

so many wrong infos in this thread. They specifically did not say maximum power because they dont know how to show it yet. 112kw is maximum output of engine + motor, and going by that, Prius G4 has some 30hp more.



Merged.

Lol. Where to start. Things dont change over the years.

Hyundai has built Ioniq to be cheap. Thats what their head of R&D says when comparing it to Prius. It is cost effective! Thats why it has single motor thats much less powerful than in Prius. Likely battery is not large since they rate city worse than G3 in Korea plus as single, motor system they likely recover much less in the city. It is also size of the Auris and not Prius.

And it is great that you dont think G4 has embarassing engine. After-all it is first petrol in the history to beat good diesel in highway mileage (Jetta TDI). But hey, at least it is not embarrassing.

As to Toyota not having great DI system, they actually have the most advanced DI tech that others will emulate 12 years after introduction - D4S. Not only it mixes power and emissions, it is only DI system that doesnt get carbon buildup.

This reminds me when Sonata and Fusion hybrids were just introduced. I am sure you were there saying how Hyundai and Ford beat Toyota tech... and look at us know, Ford and Hyundai barely sell any hybrids 3-4 years later where Toyota does 1.3m per year.

 

The battery size of the Ioniq has already been leaked, and it is larger than the Prius.

Hyundai's hybrids aren't one motor; there is one in the drivetrain, and one on the front end of the ICE that replaces the starter and alternator. It can also be used for regen,

 

That on on the front actually is a starter that just happens to act as an alternator. Not the motor that could be counted in as a hybrid component afaik.

And on the battery size - people have reported that driving a Prius with a degraded battery, with only part of the original capacity, MPGs don't get affected. So if it's not a plug-in I actually want the smallest (and cheapest) battery that the car can get away with so when the time comes I don't have to shell out a ton of money. If they made a Prius with a 0.00001kWh battery and it didn't affect mpg, I would be happy with it

 

It is a HSG. On its own, without the motor in the drive train, it would make the car a mild hybrid like the old Malibu hybrid. Some proposed 48 volt mild hybrids even use the HSG term. With the other motor, it could, inefficiently, allow serial operation.