Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

I was going back to my Prius data when this showed up:

From the article:

NAMYANG, South Korea -- Hyundai Motor Co. says its new Ioniq, to be offered in three electrified versions, will succeed in the U.S. because it is tailored, even more than the Toyota Prius, to Americans' driving styles.

The Ioniq, which sports a one-motor, one-clutch setup, will deliver better highway fuel economy than the Prius, the world's best-selling hybrid, said Yang Woong-chul, Hyundai's global r&d chief.
. . .
Yang declined to give a fuel economy figure for the Ioniq, but said it will top the Prius on the highway.
. . .
But one-motor, one-clutch systems are challenging to engineer because it is hard to synchronize the spinning motor with the engine speed before engaging them through the clutch.

"That's the hurdle which no company had overcome," Yang said.

Hyundai resolved the problem by adopting a powerful central processor that was fast enough to manage a quick and smooth clutch lockup. The lockup takes just 0.6 seconds, Yang said.
​

Sounds like their City mileage won't be so hot. Going after Prius highway numbers has always been a trick to take attention off of City mileage. The cheat-Jetta came within 1 MPG of a 2008 Prius in the Portland-to-Portland fiasco by driving as fast as they could only to find a ~1/40 = 2.5% difference, which is well under the relative cost of diesel to regular gasoline. So you can burn 2.5% less diesel to pay +10% at the pump. With victories like these . . .

Bob Wilson

 

I posted my disbelieving comment and asked for comments, which I received. My source was clearly stated to be a repeat from the new Ioniq Forum, and the writer identified his source as the Hyundai Global Website ..... not further defined.

But I do appreciate the comments, and I am well satisfied that it was bad information, although I am unable to explain what was quoted. I find the comment about poor city milage interesting, because if I were to consider an Ioniq, it would be as an in-town run-around car to supplement my Avalon "road-car."

I hope all of you that are engineers and otherwise qualified to understand and explain the various pros and cons, will continue to do so as more information is revealed.

 

Bob - I accept your comment re city milage. In looking for an explanation why Hyundai would follow the course they appear to be taking, I was wondering (a question, not an explanation) that might explain the multi gear (I think I read 8 gears somewhere) transmission?

Again, another question, the (anticipated) poor city milage would only be true on the hybrid configuration, right? It would not be such a factor on the EV and the plug-in would it?

Disclaimer - I am not an engineer, and these are discussion questions, not challenges.

 

It is more a fear from what we've seen in the past.

To make an efficient, City car, the engine has to be off a significant fraction of the time. It is possible with a single motor IF it is located in the right place in the transmission, the shifter gear shaft. Anywhere else and there will be problems keeping the engine off. It would also have easily felt 'shift points' which some might object. But I grew up on manual transmission cars so I'm used to it.

I am OK with a stepped gear transmission versus a CVT or eCVT but this task begins to resemble juggling cats . . . and the first time for the cats. It can be done but it won't be easy. If detectable shift points are OK, no problem. If the shift points and hesitations need to be 'hidden', it is what we call a 'hard problem.'

Bob Wilson

 

If we look at the new sonata system versus the camry system we get mirror images
Compare Side-by-Side


43, 39 and the two numbers, the two cars swap them.

My best guess on the new one will be
49 city, 53 hwy, 51 combined

I think they really are doing this phev weighted. With cheap gas, the phev + bev could be half the sales.

Should actually be easier than in the prius. There is a clutch between motor and transmission and one between motor and engine. This allows coast, electric assist, coast while charging battery, etc. The prius needs the engine rotating at high rpm, here you just unclutch.

The difficulty according to hyundai is electronics and software. You have the engine off, then start it, then you must speed it up to match the motor/transmission speed for a smooth engagement. Supposedly this was not possible when the prius came out in 1997, but now hyundai, bmw, vw, mercedes, etc seem to be able to do it.

In city driving in the smaller batteried hybrid, that first/second gear shift won't be as efficient as a cvt. Once its on the highway at higher speeds, the transmission should be more efficient. Cost of the transmission versus ecvt is the question. I believe on the camry/sonata sized system the hyundai system is lighter.

 

Compare Side-by-Side


Austingreen beat me to post.
I also included the cars' high power ICE sibling, in part for giggles, but mainly to show that highway bias of Hyundai's system doesn't equate poor city fuel economy. The 4mpg spread between the numbers is less than half what is seen in old fashioned ICE cars.

The Ioniq is using a different transmission and hybrid system than the Sonata though. It is a 6 speed double clutch to the Sonata's 6 speed step, which is the typical automatic transmission in North America. Hyundai has a new 8 speed step for their larger cars that was announced along side the Ioniq, which lead to some confusion about what the hybrid had.

Honda's one motor Sport Hybrid system uses a 6 speed double clutch transmission also. It is in the new hybrid Jazz/Fit, which I think is only available in Japan. Until we get actual numbers for the Ioniq, the Jazz's numbers might give some insight into how the Hyundai will perform city vs. highway.

EV from the grid will be more efficient, of course, but is the higher PHEV price worth it for a city run about? The BEV should cost less than the PHEV, but word on range yet.

Without the official figures yet, and if the size is large enough to work, the Prius c is going to be tough to beat for inexpensive car with great city MPG.

 

Thank you all for the discussion. When additional details are announced, I hope y'all will keep up the discussion.

 

More efficient? City speeds non-acceleration? With Prius, the engine is either off or low rpm (idle speed).

 

I heard a few things about the Ioniq that I thought were interesting

1. No 12V battery.. reasons given were to save weight, cost, and maintenance.. didnt sound outlandish.. in fact, it seems to be something people are always asking about the Prius.. if it has a big battery in the back, why does it have a little 12V too..

2. The electric version will have decent range, but didnt sound like 200 miles. What it did sound like to me, however, was that it would be closer to the Kia Soul EV.. but in a more aerodynamic and lighter body? The Kia Soul EV has a 30.5kWh battery FWIW

3. Nothing new, but they do expect it to beat Gen3 EPA numbers.. but I figured that was a given.. cant compete on MPG if your numbers arent better

 

1. Is interesting, but the main reason for the 12 volt was that it allowed the traction battery to be isolated while parked and off. Many BEVs still have a 12 volt battery for the same reason, including the Model S. The Ioniq pack is larger than the Prius', so I wonder how it isolates it while off for safety and minimizing of self discharging.
2. The Soul EV has a little over 90 miles of range. Sounds like the Ioniq EV should get at least 100 miles. Less than the others in the pipeline, but it should beat them on price.
3. Their gen2 Sonata hybrid matches the current gen Camry on combine numbers. Targeting the gen3 Prius ones makes sense, but were they taking the new EPA rules into account? The real test will be what users get in relation to the EPA.

 

Its one of those things where.. when I ask.. and I get a response.. I dont want to keep asking for more details because that may trigger the "if I tell you, you cant mention this anywhere.." response.. so.. yeah.. but the the range # that was said was north of 100... but at the same time, it didnt sound like an "official" number.. maybe their EV range target is the 30kwh Leaf? It would be nice to say you have the longest range EV aside from a Tesla?

 

did they hire bob klutz?

 

I said easier, not more efficient. Its in the text you quoted. With the simple clutch mechanism the engine can be kept off at higher speeds, as long as the battery has enough power to acclerate. Sonata phev this is 75 mph. We will have to wait and see on this model though.

Q:City speeds non-acceleration, if I read this is 25mph-45mph steady speed. The two should be on equal footing here.

Both cars should avoid idling, and turn the engine off when possible in this situation. There is of course the situation where the battery is low and can not power the accesories, where a low engine power is required. Both seem to be able to do that trick. The disadvantage in the sonata type hybrid is acceleration at low speeds as mentioned in the rest of my post.

 

That's why I questioned it. What benefit does that make... efficiency, cost, longevity, etc?

 

My guess in terms of the low power of this ioniq it mainly lowered development costs for hyundai, and required fewer lawyers. Software development costs for other higher powered systems should also be lower. If you are building large number of vehicles each year though, these costs per vehicle get low.

A dct transmission would likely be more efficient at higher speeds than the hsd, but this is countered by lower efficiency at low speed acceleration. That makes it different, but not better. YMMV

A dct transmission should provide better feel at higher speeds, but this should be able to be done in software with a hsd. Toyota simply hasn't done it yet. Other cvt vendors have started work, and IMHO this is not a major improvement.

Toyota/Lexus seem to have cost problems at higher power levels (RXh, GXh, LSh), the Hyundai system here, as well as similar systems designed at bmw, vw group, mercedes, likely have cost and weight advantages here. At this low power level (105 hp engine, and 45 hp motor, 150 hp or less combined depending on how much power the battery has) the toyota system is probably less expensive to manufacture, the hyundai system may be lighter. Hyundai has a larger capacity battery in terms of usable SOC, which likely costs them more. They may have different control strategies.

If the ionoq has advantages over the prius then it won't be engine or transmission which probably are around the same efficiency but the prius components likely cost toyota less. Hyundai may cut into their profit margin to sell it though.

On the PHEV model the lighter weight and better highway fuel economy though should help. We still don't know what the 2017 prius phv look like. We can only guess figures based on the sonata hybrid and phev.

 

what does sonata have to do with next pip?

 

I assume that the ioniq will follow and improve the sonata.

Lower weight. Lower frontal area. both 6 speed automatic but ioniq has a dct (duel clutch automated manual, with very quick shifts) versus a normal automatic without a slush box, 40% effiicient 1.6L di 105 hp gasoline, versus 2L lower efficiency in the hyundai.

Hyundai seems to think the ioniq will beat the gen III prius on efficiency. Toyota hasn't stood still so am comparing it to the soon to be released gen IV prius.

 

efficiency, or highway mpg's?

actually, they claim, 'we completely started anew, to get the best of all things, instead of applying the best of what we already had'. instead of improving on the sonata hybrid drivetrain, this will be a whole new design, the best of all.

 

I thought they started on a dedicated platform. Oh well. If you believe it won't resemble the sonata design, then we will have something to see when it is released.

 

but i'm still perplexed by your sentence, 'we still don't know what the 2017 prius phev looks like. we can only guess figures based on the sonata hybrid and phev.