Hydrogen Generator

The 2004+ Prius uses a wide A/F sensor in place of a traditional O2 sensor, so, no its not the same setup as most other Toyota cars.

 

Where perhaps it's not a catalyst it does help with the burn process ....I know a guy that put H/G on his diesel truck (he's the head mechanic for a large trucking outfit here ) and he claims 50-70 mpg increase per tank and uses baking soda to increase conductivity ...He is now adding these to his fleet .if they didn't work he wouldn't go to the trouble. he feels the 10% increase is worth it .I agree that a dyno would be the way to go .I have 2 Prius 07 & 08 and I do want to try this this fall .......Try this search by Steve Woodward.. "prius hydrogen generator.".on a google search ...it's the first couple of hits.....HE even shows you how to make one ...m

 

This nonsense needs to be put to bed. No way will it work.

 

If anyone spends 15 min doing any research you'll know there is something to it....but then again 100 years ago they said the same things about rubber tires...........

 

Provide some of the links that you think will convince us. I actually did spend an afternoon looking into it once just out of curiosity. I remain skeptical. I'm willing to reexamine it if you can show me something that will convince me.

I did find what seems to be a legitimate company who have filed for a patent to use H2 as a "fuel extender". However, they did not claim to produce the fuel by electrolysis and the engine must be tuned (F/A ratio and timing changed) to take advantage of the H2 introduced. This is not the type of thing the average backyard mechanic will be able to do with a mason jar and rubber tubing.

The reason that many here are skeptical is that for the device to work in the manner described (generate H2 gas + 0 by electrolysis and then get increased energy from the fuel) it would violate two of the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. So unless you provide extraordinary proof, the people who understand thermodynamics will remain skeptical at best.

 

"Cold fusion" is looking better!

There are vehicles that run just fine on water vapor--they are called "steam engines". Unfortunately energy is required to heat liquid water to make the steam.

 

:frusty:

 

For what its worth, I think the Plastic Jesus theory violates the First Law of Thermodynamics also.

 

Reading the threads on the H2 generator, believe it's nonsense also.
Can't get more energy out then you put in.

BUT --- Back in the last gas crunch of the 70s , I ran a water injection system on my 360 ci Dodge Aspen patrol car for about 2 years with a noticable mpg increase. Back then , my department was buying the cheapest gas possible, Gulf NoNox,. Sad stuff. 89 or so. Sunoco had 120.

Anyway, the system itself was only water injected into the carb from a water holding tank through a calibrated nozzle that was teed into the carb vacuum line. Simple, can't work.

I was told that the water helped extend the burn time of the gasoline in the cylinders during ignition and power stroke. Was said to have been developed for the P-51 Mustang during WW2 for a fast power burst during supercharger speed.
The water injection really did help on pick up and also kept the carbon build up down. Patrol cars back then were bad for carboning up and you had to blow them out every day. High comprssion engines on low compression gas, and riding shotgun with fuel tankers for the public good.

l kept pretty close records for the company who asked me to try it, and I did get 4+ mpg overall over the course of 9 months (17 to 21 mpg average). Helped smooth out the idle ( which we did alot of ) and high end rpm also.

The company never did get back to me after gas got abundent again, so I never did get them the data. Kept on using the system for another year + on my Pontiac Enforcer, mostly out of habit, which did help the pickup. Not sure about the mileage, didn't keep any records.

Not saying that the H2 system is of value today with electronic injection systems, but back then, in the old days of Holly Duel-pumpers, adding H2O mist to gas was a valid idea that worked.

Don't be so quick to knock a new idea (or old ) without trying it first. Easy to pick apart something using data that you read and pull off the internet.
Try, then report if it works or doesn't.

I didn't believe water injected into my gas line worked either, until I used it for 2 years.

Flintlock
(yes, I had to separate people fighting with tire irons who were in the gas lines)

 

Water injection is a different story, and actually has benefits when done correctly. There are all sorts of things that can be done to improve engine efficiency and/or power, each with its own set of trade-offs. Toyota has already done a pretty good job making the correct trade-offs for the Prius, so it's hard to improve.

Tom

 

Really? Well then I will *sell* the OP a plastic Buddha that is virtually most definitely mostly guaranteed to bring harmony to the Hydrogen and give the motor more wellness and zen benefits.

Think *OM* !

 

Oh no, now we are going to get a bunch of posts asking: "What is that 'OM' sound I hear when I press on the gas pedal." This will be worse than the brake accumulator pump.

Tom

 

What if I install a Plastic Jesus and a Plastic Buddha? Will I get double the mpg improvement or will they cancel each other out? :madgrin:

 

The Lord Shiva will sort it out:


Just watch out for:


Bob Wilson

 

I started to install HHO on my truck, which is what eventually made me decide to buy a Prius.

The theory I eventually understood is that HHO is supposed to improve the efficiency of the fuel burn, which then allows you to lean out your mixture and save fuel. Unfortunately, the computer in your car is designed to maintain an air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1, and no matter what you do, it will maintain that ratio. This is because the emissions system is a "closed loop" system - meaning that it monitors the exhaust (using the O2 sensor) and adjusts the fuel/air mixture to maintain that ratio.

If you just put in an HHO generator, then the burn will be more efficient, the O2 content of the exhaust will decrease, the computer will assume the mixture is lean, and richen the mixture, therefore making your gas mileage WORSE.

To overcome this, people put a voltage offset in the output of the O2 sensor using a device called an EFIE . This fools the computer into thinking that the mixture is richer than it really is, so it leans out the mixture going to the cylinder. This saves gas. You can buy an EFIE device on one of many websites, or there are plans you can find on the web.

When you lean out the mixture to your cylinder, engine temperature increases rapidly and can burn your pistons and valves (ENGINE DAMAGE), so you have to do this carefully. The best way is to monitor exhaust gas temperature (EGT) immediately after the exhaust manifold. You need an EGT gauge.

Since most HHO generators only generate about 1 litre/minute of HHO gas, you can imagine that the process would only work well when the engine is idling (low air intake), for example while you are sitting in traffic or driving at low speeds. When you are driving fast, then the air flow is too high and the HHO makes up an insigificant portion of the fuel/air mixture - it has negligable effect. So the only place you can really benefit from HHO (if at all) is while you are idling in traffic, at low speeds.

>>> The Prius is designed to primarily use the electric motors at low speeds while in traffic and not the ICE, so you're not going to get any benefit from your HHO generator. <<<< This should stop you right here, but if you choose to continue, read on...

Also, you have to consider the electrolyte used in an HHO is typically either Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH - lye) or Potassium Hydroxide (KOH - potash). You will have to store these chemicals around your house and mix them yourself. Both are extremely caustic and are very nasty and dangerous to work with. The first time you try it, you'll know what I mean.

Since the chemicals are caustic, you'll need stainless steel parts. Ever try to cut stainless steel? It's not easy. Go over to Lowe's or Home depot and buy yourself a stainless steel switch plate. Try to cut it and drill it if you don't have the right tools. So you'll need to buy tools capable of cutting stainless if you don't already have them.

You have to maintain a certain ratio of electrolyte in the solution to produce the maximum amount of HHO for the minimum amount of current, so you will need to carefully monitor your electrolyte level and add distilled water when it gets low. Oh yeah, you have to buy distilled water...

Also, the electrolyte solution heats up when you run DC current to the HHO generator. As the electrolyte heats, it's conductivity increases until the HHO generator goes into thermal runaway - it heats up rapidly until the electrolyte boils. You'll need to make sure that this does not happen by monitoring the amperage to your HHO generator. Some people use a closed loop monitoring system with a pulse width modulated (PWM) current source. Eventually you will have to understand and implement something like that.

Since the HHO generator becomes very hot, you'll also need to pay attention to the materials you'll be using to make sure they don't melt or catch fire. You are also generating higly volitile gas inside a closed container so there is the danger of explosion if you have a clog, or you accumulate too much HHO gas where there might be a static electric spark.

Additionally, you want to make sure that HHO gas does not build up in your air intake, so you'll need to implement relays to only run the generator when the engine has vacuum (indicating that the ICE is actually running).

There are just too many engineering problems for one person to be able to solve in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable personal cost, to come up with a convenient solution. For the small amount of gas mileage increase you'll get (if you're lucky), you won't save any money. You'll more likely end up in the hole. You could buy a complete system from someone, but then you'll really be in the hole.

I went out and bought all of the materials (for a do-it-myself system), which by the time I was done was about $300.00+ and in addition, bought power supplies, leads, chemicals and everthing else I needed to get this thing working. Not to mention all of the additional shipping and handling charges you pay - it's enough to put you in the poor house. In the end, I decided not to screw up my truck, and that it was more trouble than it's worth. I sold everything on ebay (except the power supplies which I was going to buy anyhow).

The real solution I decided on was to sell the truck and buy a Prius. The Prius is brilliantly engineered to have excellent gas mileage while driving in city traffic. Let me repeat that - BRILLIANTLY - engineered, by skilled engineers working tens of thousands of man hours with the money and resources of a huge car company behind them.

It amazes me how much information there is about building these HHO generators out there on the web. But I looked and looked for some evidence that some people actually got this to work. Very little convincing evidence. People seem to work on it, then you never hear their results. My guess, is that there are a lot of happy Prius owners out there who previously tried HHO and decided it was a waste of time. You can't make a silk Prius out of a SUV's ear.

Save your money and buy the plug-in kit if you want better gas mileage from your Prius. There is no better WORKING solution out there right now that will get you decent range. Anyone that says any different is paying too much attention to marketting hype and vaporware that does not exist anywhere but on paper, or in some really expensive prototype in a lab somewhere that's not available.

Why not start working on a straight EV?

 

...and despite all the hype, burning HHO doesn't make your engine magically burn gasoline more efficiently. The only gain in fuel mileage comes from making your engine burn too lean, which can and will cause engine damage. There is no chemistry behind the HHO as a catalyst theory. It's all snake oil designed to fool people into parting with their money.

Tom

 

Wasn't the water misted and injected into the intake?

Back in those days, cars didn't have closed loop emissions systems. You could lean out your mixture to get better mileage by tweeking your carb. The water cooled the combustion process, thereby not burning your valves/pistons.

Nowadays, you have pulse width modulated fuel injectors that carefully meter out fuel to maintain a fixed air/fuel ratio. This is all monitored and computer controlled in a closed loop system, so no matter what you do, the system will correct itself. The ratio has to be maintained for your catalytic converter to work, thus keeping your car running "clean" at the expense of gas mileage.

You could use water injection with an EFIE device to lean out your mixture, but then your NOx emissions will increase (see attached plot). At the very least, you'll be in violation of the law and in addition, you may ruin your catalytic converter. Not to mention the possibility of ruining your engine if you accidentally run out of water for your injection system.

You could go with a diesel - they are designed to run hot and lean. Good highway mileage, but maybe not so good in traffic.

P.S. I don't know what the original source of the attached plot is, I found it in a Jeep forum while I was researching HHO injection. Neat Plot. You can see they've traded off between the different emissions products and fuel economy.

 

very good information on the closed loop system, I was not familiar with the closed loop system on modern cars.

 

Well, I've been rethinking this HHO stuff:



There might be something to it.

Bob Wilson

 

The term "HHO gas" is generally used to refer to some sort of "magic" form of hydrogen and oxygen (ie, "Brown's Gas"), different from H20 and an H2/O2 mixture. From a chemical standpoint, "HHO gas" (a compound with 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom) is steam and won't be any different than water injection.

If you're doing electrolysis, you're getting a mixture of one H2 and one O2 for each two H2O, not HHO. The O2 isn't a big deal, as you can get that free from the atmosphere.

So what it boils down to is you're injecting a small amount of H2 into the intake, and I think the "HHO gas" term is to deliberately obfuscate that. Adding H2 to the intake does not produce more energy than it costs to make.