Hydrogen cars are on their way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(excuseMeButt @ Apr 13 2007, 08:50 AM) [snapback]422593[/snapback]</div>

LOL, that is really funny.

Hummm... come to think of it... That sounds very similar to what some hybrid bashers claim: especially when a HEV vehicle is involved in an accident or gets submersed in water. They claim it is a danger to the occupants and the rescue personnel. LOL

I guess it is OK. What do they know about safety engineering and a manufacturers' reputation for safety? Right?

On that vein... Yeah, Honda must be crazy !!!



Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Apr 13 2007, 06:26 PM) [snapback]423088[/snapback]</div>

Side note: The energy used just to compress the hydrogen into the tanks is enought to propel an EV a similar number of miles... without first making the Hydrogen!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Apr 12 2007, 09:08 PM) [snapback]422412[/snapback]</div>

I'm curious what makes them cool? Is it the electric propulsion? The swoopy sheet metal of the fantasy cars? The complex FC stack? The inefficiency?

The main reason being that they COULD MAKE THEM TODAY. FCVs are a great way to keep promising the ZEVs without actually delivering them.

Me too! Though I'd like to do it in a practical, affordable and efficient way.

If spend the same money on public EV infrastructure as is bing proposed for FC fueling infrastructure, you'd have 10x as many places to charge as you'll ever have to refuel with hydrogen. So your 8 mile inconvenience becomes a fraction of a mile in the case of an EV.

The thing is - EVs offer everything that you're asking for - and does it cheaper and with higher performance. And we've had the technology for YEARS. While I do think there is no one silver bullet solution, each dollar spent on FC tech is one dollar less that's spent on the technology that we could have been using for the past 20 years.

 

First off, thank you Darell! Excelent rebuttal.

Second, of course range and the charging time is a limited factor today for EVs. However, when you consider that you charge at home and never need to go to a gas station or hydrogen station again that "inconvenience" is negated. Furthermore, by the time that fuel cell vehicles are mass-produced and to the price that people can acctualy buy them , batteries will have capibilities that make fuel cells useless. Even today alot of the capibilities of batteries make fuel cells useless. The only thing that we now need is a quick recharge time without the loss of energy density and increase in cost. For example, pheonix's SUT can recharge in 10 minutes but only allows a range of 125 miles and costs over 200,000 (but the zero emission vehicle credits that they are earning allow them to sell it for 45,000). Yes I realize that honda will be making a version of the FCX for private lease in california in 2008, but the public overstimates this. This probably means that they will lease it to like 100 families at most for 600 a month, whereas we had over 1000 EVs on the road in the mid 1990s.

I agree with IAO that alot of the FC concept cars look cool. They have sure put alot of effort into these vehicles to make them as techy-futuristic as possible! If only the major auto manufacturers could do that with EVs. I do love the look of the FCX (the new one) .

- C

 

Natural gas extraction is far to messy to even consider itas an alternative IMO.

 

All the talk about hydrogen station is correct but not what Honda has in mind. Honda sells a system that can strip hydrogen from NG (producing heat and CO2 in the process). You can install the system at home to charge hydrogen overnight in your garage (yes, if you don't have a garage to yourself, I doublt you would ever qualify to lease a FCX!). The heat generated from the NG->hydrogen conversion process is also used to heat your water at home. The heat per se is not wasted. Honda is not betting on the hydrogen station to be ready in 2008 or 2009. Believe it or not, Honda even have research on how to grow corns more productively. Honda is that kind of company (one that is run by engineers, not marketeers!)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Apr 14 2007, 11:48 PM) [snapback]423512[/snapback]</div>

Absolutely all true.

However, much of the criticism about Honda's FCX package (and it is a package!) is sort of justified because it does not fit the needs of all folks - at least just judging from the responses.

But then again this is the Honda we know very well, not some other company. They will always thrive on tough challenges ... and this area, I firmly believe they'll continue to get the greenest results.

It is a pitty that this system will not be initially available where I live. I would get it in a heartbeat.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Apr 14 2007, 10:00 PM) [snapback]423495[/snapback]</div>

Very true! extention cords are not going to work. I like you idea of charging posts in the parking lot. That would make alot more sense than extention cords.

- C

 

i think it a bit more than naive that some company would not install several charging stations in parking lots all over town. would prefer that they only use grid power when their solar voltaics are depleted or even wind power if feasible. swipe a card, let it charge until its unplugged. if unplugged (theft attempt) another swipe of the card is required.

or better yet, a sensor applied to the vehicle where the station recognizes the vehicle and billing information via RFID or something similiar. charging done thru induction so no hookup necessary... but that might be the dreams that big government subsidies are made of....since our current budget is going to iraq... guess it be just a dream

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Apr 14 2007, 07:51 PM) [snapback]423483[/snapback]</div>

The thing is... nothing needs to be invented to fuel EVs.

EVs aren't SOME of the most efficient. They are THE most efficient motor vehicles we've ever had on the road. Just a nit to pick!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hisamine @ Apr 14 2007, 08:14 PM) [snapback]423489[/snapback]</div>

This is comparing EVs of yesterday with the dream of FCVs of the future, unfortunately. Today, EVs are capable of better range than any FCV has ever demonstrated, and recharge times of the same order of magnitude. Put the same amount of money and effort into developing Battery EVs as is being wasted... errr... SPENT on FCVs today, and FCVs would likely never catch up in any category.

Fuel cells won't be useless, but with today's batteries, I see no need to even consider FC use in automobiles.

*Could* is not the issue here. Choosing to do so is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Apr 14 2007, 09:00 PM) [snapback]423495[/snapback]</div>

Well, for the price of one H2 filling station, we could instead install many hundreds of electric vehicle chargers - anywhere you want! This is not rocket science. Stations in public locations is not a hurdle - any more than building FC stations is! If you're thinking that FCV are going to be easier to fuel, with more convenient stations anytime in this lifetime... well I've got a bridge to sell you!

An easy and reasonable solution. Chargers at work. Chargers on the street. Chargers in parking garages. Nothing too complicated - especially when considering the alternatives!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hisamine @ Apr 15 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]423669[/snapback]</div>

This is what we're doing today. Again - absolutely nothing needs to be invented. Here is a picture of what a Solar-powered (shading the parking spots) charging parking area looks like. This particular one is about 15 miles from my house and near many restaurants, movie theaters and shopping (Costco). Compared to installing Hydrogen fueling stations, something like this is FREE.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ Apr 15 2007, 06:21 PM) [snapback]423810[/snapback]</div>

All we have to do is WANT to do it. Set a priority. Putting all our eggs in the FC basket is a big mistake and a giant waste of money and resources. I do understand how exciting all this "new technology" is... but all a Fuel Cell car is, is an inefficienty Battery Electric car that is expensive to build, expensive to fuel, expensive to maintain and relatively low performance.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Apr 14 2007, 10:01 PM) [snapback]423517[/snapback]</div>

Tideland... Battery EVs need fewer voids than a FCV that actually still has a tail pipe, and needs air intake. If this is a selling point for FCVs, then... well, it shouldn't be! The one, and only one thing that FCV's have the potential of doing better than an EV is refill time. Yet even that one is debatable. And with modern EV ranges in the multiple hundreds of miles, refill time becomes less of an issue to even consider.

Here's what the EV1 looks like from the ground. Obviously it could be even smoother, but they added ease of access to certain hold-downs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Apr 15 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]423819[/snapback]</div>

What I usually tell people is that it takes ME three seconds to charge. The CAR spends quite a bit more time charging, but I don't! I'm usually eating dinner or sleeping. On average, cars are parked somewhere 21+ hours every day.

We already have fast chargers. We can charge EVs in a matter of minutes. It just takes gobs of power. And while that needs specialty equipment, nothing new needs to be invented. It has been in service for 12+ years already. Airports use fast chargers for their ground support on a daily basis.

Absolutely. Most days you would inexpensively slow charge at home while you sleep. If you need a fast charge on a road-trip, you'd pay a premium (you know, like maybe half what you'd pay for gasoline!) and be on your way after a coffee break every 250 miles. We managed to build gasoline stations on every street corner - we can certainly manage this! And with more people using electricity and fewer using gasoline, that means far fewer gasoline tanker trucks clogging up the roads as well. (Same with Hydrogen!).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Apr 14 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]423341[/snapback]</div>

It's the 100 grammes of platinum that is essential for all FCVs!

(And also limits fuel cell vehicle production to a fraction of 1% of world vehicle output.... unless someone works out how to turn base metals into platinum....)


PS for those who live without easy access to home recharging, it is done most easily at Wal-mart, where discounted electricity is provided to encourage your (longer) custom.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Apr 16 2007, 10:44 AM) [snapback]424123[/snapback]</div>

Yeah... funny how nobody says that about millions of new homes... with AC units and pool pumps. And they don't seem too concerned about it when they get excited about hydrogen either. Not so much funny as sad, really.

We can charge many millions of EVs from the grid night now - just on the underutilized off-peak (night) hours of electricity generation. Balancing the grid demand actually makes everything more efficient, and makes each kWh produced less polluting... and cheaper. We need to put this into perspective:

1. Electric cars will not use more electricity than today's gasoline cars. (you've heard this before, yes?) (the electricity that goes into making and distributing a gallon of gas will allow me to drive about 20 miles in my EV)
2. Compared to hydrogen (topic of this thread) EVs will require 1/4 the amount of electricity to operate.

If we were to start building PV charging stations and gas stations today from scratch, I'd give PV stations a WAY better chance of reaching saturation - for no other reason than the environmental outcry that would arise from trying to put gasoline in everybody's back yard. But we don't need PV charging stations to make EVs desirable. Not by a long shot. That would just be icing on the cake - and something to strive for. Few people have qualms with turning on their whole-house AC units without it first being supplied green electricity. My AC units (two of them!) require more energy than charging my car. And I typically need AC during the heat of the day - while the car charges at night - off peak.

We will NEVER have as many gas stations than we have electrical outlets. And we most CERTAINLY will never have as many hydrogen filling stations as we have gas stations today. If we managed to build out the gasoline infrastructure to where it is today, I'm pretty confident that we can figure out how to charge EVs. And if we're even dreaming of an H2 infrastructure... well, don't get me started.

Not everything is in place as we need it of course. But as I keep saying - there's no rocket science here, and nothing new needs to be invented (unlike with fuel cell car commercialization). We just need to prioritize it, and implement it. But that'll never happen while gas remains cheap, and most drivers keep their heads firmly planted in the sand.