Hybrids won't save drivers money, Consumer Reports (April 2006)

Having not yet read the article, I can't say too much, but it sounds like CR isn't comparing apples to apples.

• Why compare to the Corolla rather than the Camry? Have they both grown in size such that the Prius is now closer in size to a Corolla?
• Have they added everything they can to bring the Corolla feature list up to what is standard in a Prius and the accounted for the 'extra' Prius features?
• It isn't reasonable to say - "the Prius has feature X but it isn't available on the Corolla so we'll ignore that" and then say it costs more to own. Especially when the features are desired by the consumer
• The same holds for the Accord and Accord hybrid, except in that case, saying you won't save money is probably true. The HAH has 2 levels - with nav for $33K and without for $31K. You pay for leather, XM Radio, moon roof, Vehicle Stability Assist whether you want them or not. Does CR compare it to the $18K base model? You can ramp up your cost though the LX and EX models to get features you want and skip some you don't

And where do they come up with higher maintenance costs? The Prius specs have an oil change every 5K miles and little else for the first 100K (Even though the dealer keeps putting a sticker in the window saying next change due in 3250 miles).

Higher insurance? Travelers has a 10% discount for hybrid owners. I wonder if that will bite them with the high horsepower HAH. People do tend to drive a vehicle to its design. Capable of 0-60 in 7 seconds, GOTTA USE IT to pass that person slowing down for the red light.

And yes, I know CR makes and does not correct errors. My last vehicle was a 6 passanger '95 Honda Odyssey. CR said the mid row captains chairs didn't come out (BS!!, took them out all the time, about $35 pounds each) and never corrected it for future model years prior to the redesign ('98 or '99??) even though I wrote and told them of the error.

 

I'm a CR subscriber too and while they may be correct dollar wise...I don't care...I'd rather pay less at the pump and drive in much much more peace than blowing a gasket :angry: every 2 days filling up my old car. The spreadsheet I made to keep track of my mileage also has 3 more columns - the first is what this tank would have cost me at 20 mpg, the second is how much $ I saved this fill up and the third is how much $ I've saved so far. At 7495 miles, I've saved $403.

It's not just about the money, though, is it? I had a tree hugger :blink: come to my door the other day asking me to sign a petition to keep Alaska from being drilled to save the wildlife. I thought...all this talk about using less foreign oil, supporting the terroists, and yet, they don't want us to drill our OWN USA oil?! Man, our hybrids are saving our money, our oil and sending less bucks to the enemy, no offense to our allies.

 

While there were lot of errors (like comparing cars with different features) made in the Consumer Reports article, most of the erroneous conclusions were due to a blunder made by Consumer Reports in calculating the bottom line in their related report. For example, even using their own numbers for the individual items, correct calculations of the bottom line would have shown a net saving of $450 instead of an extra cost of $5250 figured by Consumer Reports for owning a Prius instead of Corolla over a 5-year period. There would have been similar differences in the other models compared by Consumer Reports.

The problem lies in the way both the difference in the purchase cost and the difference in the depreciation cost were simply added together (besides the other factors) to calculate the difference in the ownership cost.

This was discussed in more detail in posts 88 and 92.

 

It looks like the Consumer Reports did agree with the calculation error pointed out in post 92.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...al/14041566.htm

It says:
Consumer Reports now says it made an error when calculating the cost of owning a hybrid: Owners of the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic hybrids do save money, the magazine said today.

Last week, the organization released a statement ahead of its well-read April auto issue, which hit newsstands today, that said owners of the six most popular hybrid vehicles would pay more than buyers of comparable gasoline-only vehicles over their lifetime of ownership.

Late today, however, Consumer Reports issued a statement acknowledging ``a calculation error.''

``We deeply regret the error,'' said Rik Paul, the magazine's automotive editor, said in the statement.
Am glad to see that they admitted their error.

 

You are right that it is most definitely not a random sample or a representative sample of the US Car Owners. It's been awhile since I read CR's description of their survey results, but does CR actually say it is a random sample or a representative sample of the US? It seems like CR has always said that it is a survey of their readers.

Either way, I am not really convinced that a true random, representative sample of owner problems is going to be more accurate than their current surveys. This isn't like you are asking for their opinions on controversial issues, you are asking them how many problems they had and if they would buy the car again. They already wait until they have enough of a sample size for each model. A piece of crap in Nebraska seems like it would be a piece of crap car in Washington or Florida. Neither would I think one's geographical location would have much of impact on whether or not you bought the same vehicle again (barring the moving to a location that required an all terain vehicle or something).

 

Wow, it's been almost 12 years since we bought that Prius. Well, here's my 12 year after action report. My wife got into an accident, the left headlight assembly and quarter panel was replaced. The water pump was replaced on recall. I think they shaved down the accelerator pedal on recall. Had a drum brake problem that was fixed with a little cleaning of dust by the local repair shop. Other than that, no problems. Never got stuck on the side of the road!

 

I had to spend $2500 replacing the battery in my older hybrid. That's an expense "normal" gasoline or diesel cars don't have.

 

but they must have other expenses, or are they trouble free?

 

Gasoline and diesel cars have the typical failures you would see in a Prius: Engine breakdown, radiator leaks, worn tires, transmission failure, and so on. What they DON'T have is a $2500 battery replacement cost, so that's an automatic 2500 dollar savings (versus hybrid).

 

if they last that long.

 

Since March 2006, Consumer Reports has had at least one complete staff turnover in their automotive reviewers and three editors. The hybrids are lasting longer than employment at Consumer Reports.

Bob Wilson

 

Transmission failure will happen in any car, but manuals have clutches (Prius don't have), automatics servos and vales, leaks... [500USD to 2000USD]
Alternators (Prius doesn't have) [400USD]
Starters (Prius doesn't have) [300USD]
Turbos (diesels have, some gasolines have, Prius don't) [1500USD]
Injectors (expensive for diesels, and DI gasoline engines, Prius is port fueled) [500-1500USD]
Brakes (Prius wear less)
Fuel (Prius consumes less) [700gal less in 100k miles, 50MPG vs 37MPG]

Automatic 2500 dollar savings heh?

 

No belts either.

 

Meh....
The article was written waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2006.
Before people knew who this guy in Illinois named Barack Obama was....
Before people anywhere knew what an iphone IS.
Before Facebook.....the Tweeters....and back when Kardashians were only known to Star Trek fans.
Gas averaged about $0.50 to $1.00 MORE back in 2006, and Priuses were about $4,000 cheaper.

.....and still, numbers don't lie.
You need statisticians to do that.

ANY car that you buy new and sell 4-5 years later isn't going to "save you money" so it's a no-brainer that a car that you spend more money for upfront will probably not be much better in that regard.

Cars are an emotional purchase, so Prius haters will always be able to come up with at least as much data as Prius lovers do to support their respective arguments.

I've long said that Priuses are about the cheapest car that you can own throughout their life cycle, but if you insist on buying an up-optioned model, new, and paying for unneeded maintenance and not checking the oil, and then dumping it back on the market in a few years at another new car dealership - then it's possible that you're going to spend more money driving one than you need or ought to.

P.T. Barnum was right....


See you in 10 more years....

 

This is not quite accurate: Weekly U.S. All Grades All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Dollars per Gallon)

Bob Wilson

 

About 8,180,000 results (1.02 seconds)
Search Results

As shown in the above graph, the weekly average gas price started the year at $2.28 in February. It quickly rose to an average May to September of $2.90, an increase of .62, peaking at $3.02 in August. 42 percent of Americans thought Bush did it. The FTC report gives 6 reasons for the increase in oil prices.Sep 2, 2007
Why gas prices went up in 2006 - Autoblog

I used a different statistician.....and I corrected my article's typo while you were rebutting it.

 

Yep.
Diesels also need Adblue or similar (25USD per 5k miles) and tend to dramatically increase particulate emissions over time...which lead to DPF clogging and replacement [1000USD]...

 

Diesels don't even come close to making sense in America unless one is hauling large loads over great distances....and lives in a US state with no emissions testing.

 

Yes soot filters are expensive, but gasoline-powered cars are not immune. New EU regulations will soon require gasoline/hybrid cars to have soot filters too.

I'd like to address each item below: - Transmission failure will happen in any car, but manuals have clutches (Prius don't have), automatics servos and vales, leaks...
Priuses can have leaks that kill the transmission. Other hybrids have standard transmissions (or in the Accord Hybrid: complicated clutches) with the same failure modes as gasoline cars with those equipments, and therefore same expense to repair. [Net 0 savings.]

- Alternators (Prius doesn't have)
It has a DC/DC converter that serves the same purpose (keep 12V battery charged) and therefore about the same cost to repair. [Net 0 savings.]

- Starters (Prius doesn't have)
Prius doesn't but other hybrids do have backup starters. Also let's be honest... how often do starters fail? I drove a Dodge 400000 miles and never needed a new starter after 10,000+ uses, so this is a nonissue. [Net 0 savings.]

- Turbos (diesels have, some gasolines have, Prius don't)
True. Though some hybrids like Jetta Hybrid come with a turbo, so it has the same failure mode as the turbo'd cars. Solution: Don't buy a turbo car. [Net 0 savings if you're smart & avoid a known flaw.]

- Injectors (expensive for diesels, and DI gasoline engines, Prius is port fueled)
Like starters this is a nonissue. I've never seen an injector fail. With batteries it's virtually certain the cells will "dry up" or "leak" and require replacement after 10-15 years aging, but not injectors. [Net 0 savings]

- Brakes (Hybrids wear less)
The manual says replace brake pads at the same rate as normal cars, so no savings. Even if you ignore the engineers & stretch your pads as long as possible, they still require fluid replacement every 2 years. If you don't, you will experience the same failure mode common in gasoline cars: Water buildup in the lines & rusted-out brakes. So you have that costly recurring maintenance, and don't really save anything. [Net savings: 10-20 dollars at most.]

 

- Fuel (Prius consumes less)

With normal gasoline cars getting over 40 mpg highway, this isn't as big a savings as it used to be. $100-200 per year... which is then erased when you get hit by the $2500 battery replacement cost at 10+ years.

Also if you buy a nonhybrid, you save about 5000 upfront. Since there's no such thing as a nonhybrid Prius, let's compare the Civic Hybrid versus a standard Civic (or a Jetta Hybrid versus Jetta). Including the ridiculous 7-8% sales tax, you immediately save several thousand dollars buying the non-hybrid.

You also save about $1100 if you buy manual instead of automatic.
- But that's a different issue.