Hybrid tussle: Prius vs Civic

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jburns @ Jun 11 2006, 11:47 PM) [snapback]269817[/snapback]</div>

This is (for the most part) true... except where one car actually T's another.

Also keep in mind a large number of "accidents" in today's roads are single-vehicle accidents. Tell me how an SUV helps when it rolls due to a decreasing-radius turn (think cloverleaf).. I know two people who have lots body parts due to being in SUVs that rolled.

The fact is that you're not that much safer in an SUV, it's just that you're MUCH more dangerous. Some people think that driving is a zero sum game, and they buy & drive accordingly.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kram @ Jun 10 2006, 03:28 PM) [snapback]269250[/snapback]</div>

Or, that they might actually take a harder look at the so-called safety premium of a large vehicle. As the Explorer proved several years ago, the bigger they are, the easier they are to tip over. Also, a lot of drivers in large vehicles get complacent about their driving; believing that they are immune from injury and that the driver of the smaller vehicle would be crazy to hit them, the SUV driver is more careless and unaware. The price of fuel will eventually get a lot of drivers to wonder just how much safer those gas guzzlers really are and opt for something more practical on the financial front.

Paying attention to what you're doing right now is safer than driving a larger vehicle anyway. I would need a calculator to figure out how many times this year that I avoided being in an accident, primarily and largely due to the fact that I was paying attention while the SUV driver was not. It happened at least once yesterday; I was driving around a curve in the road and saw the SUV driver coming the other way who was WAY over the double yellow and yakking on the cellphone. I might be in the morgue or in ICU right now if I was as unconsious as that dumbsh*t in the SUV was, even if I had been driving an equally hulking gas-guzzler instead of a Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 10 2006, 08:47 PM) [snapback]269355[/snapback]</div>

This is exactly the kind of deluded thinking Americans have.

A SUV standing up to an 18wheeler semi? Even a Hummer H1, I believe weighs in excess of 8,000lbs has insignificant weight compared to the semi. A lightweight dumptruck (no trailer) is allowed 50,000lbs or weight. The more axles, the greater the weight limit (I don't know the higher weight limits off the top of my head). With differences this great, the weight difference between the Prius and Hummer becomes statistically insignificant.

Next you're gonna tell me a SUV is safer in a collision with a freight train.

If heavier was safer, how come the 50's and 60's with their super heavy cars had so many fatalities?

 

The SUV verses CAR arguments are quite amusing, because the SUV loses everytime in one particular arena... braking on slippery roads.

That extra weight and the really wide tires are most definitely a disadvantage.

It's really hard to believe that argument point doesn't come up more often. Of course, here in Minnesota during the Winter it doesn't need to. Just watching them in action is all it takes to realize you're more likely to have an accident in the SUV.

 

The one guy I know of that talks about making vehicles lighter wrote the book "The Oil Endgame". I am not sure if you can download it for free anymore. http://www.oilendgame.com/ He talked about how composites are now entering the car market.

I saw a Hummer2 crash head on with a Dodge PU. The Hummer's front end was practically destroyed and the PU could still be driven away. It seemed most of the damage was cosmetic. Makes me wonder why the Hummer2 is so heavy. It seemed to be mostly plastic and fiberglass.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Jun 12 2006, 12:00 AM) [snapback]269842[/snapback]</div>

I can't vouch for the Gladwell article that was referenced earlier, but the statistics gathered by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) at http://www.iihs.org/research/fatality_facts/occupants.html contradict SUVs have higher fatality rates than small cars like the Prius. If you take a look at the table titled "Driver deaths per million registered passenger vehicles 1-3 years old, 2004", the Prius gets a 98 versus a fullsize SUV that gets a 56. This data is a combination of the single and multi vehicle crashes.

I have twice the chance of getting killed riding in my Prius than say a Toyota Sequoia...statistically speaking of course. In fact, the margin grows even larger when you consider only multi-vehicle crashes where it's 56 versus 18 for the Prius and Sequoia respectively.

I'm not saying the Prius is a deathtrap as the Prius has far superior accident avoidance. That's the main reason I ditched the god awful Goodyear Integrity tires for some Goodyear TripleTreds that have superb traction and braking capabilities. I think sacrificing a few MPG is worth the added safety factor.

 

The agility of the Prius has always amazed me.

It reminds me of the quote in Kelly's Heros where Donald Sutherland explains that he can go in reverse in his tank as fast as forward, so that he can "Get out of trouble as fast as I get into it." (Or something like that.)

I have often darted out of trouble with the superior acceleration of the Prius. In passing other cars, it never fails. None of that hesitation as you start the pass.

When it comes to braking, there have been at least 5 times that I have had to slam the breaks on because of something stupid someone has done in front of me. The worse was a person who just pulled in front of me on a busy street to turn around and proceed in my lane. (They were hidden behind a truck when they commenced pulling out.) Each time I did a Prius slam where it stops like a cat. You know, where everything flies. It was the reason you were not supposed to put anything in the back window of the 2001-2003 Prius. Each time, if it was any other car, I would have had to go to the shop and maybe the hospital, but not with the Prius.

How do you price that?

George

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Jun 13 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]270723[/snapback]</div>

Please read the article again. Cars with a curbweight of 2,501-3,000 pounds is classified as "small". The Prius (2004-2006 Model Years) has a curbweight of 2890 pounds.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Jun 13 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]270723[/snapback]</div>

The Prius is not classified as a mid-sized sedan based on weight and exterior dimensions. Sure, it has the interior cabin space of a mid-sized sedan, but that's it.

Gladwell's article is one of the most biased articles I've seen in a long time. The fact that he refers to Keith Bradsher at all is a dead giveaway. Even Car & Driver thinks Bradsher is a nut.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Jun 13 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]270723[/snapback]</div>

Even the Gladwell article sites data that agrees with the IIHS data. The Toyota Corolla gets 81 deaths per M while a Chevy Suburban gets 46 per M. Gladwell's article cites the Toyota Avalon as the proof that cars are incredibly safe. Did Gladwell stop to think about the demographics of who drives fullsize cars like the Toyota Avalon, Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis, etc...? Senior citizens.

I agree it would be better to see a break down of how vehicles do in collisions in their weight class and outside their weight class. That's my biggest complaint about the NHTSA 5 star rating. That rating is ONLY valid for collisions with cars within the same weight class. A Honda Civic may get a 5 star crash rating for frontal and side impacts, but that only applies for impacts with a car similar in size to the Civic. I would like to know how many stars the Civic would get in a collision with a fullsize SUV or minivan.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Jun 13 2006, 10:27 PM) [snapback]270923[/snapback]</div>

From the Gladwell data, the "Driver Deaths" column represents deaths of the car's driver (and perhaps occupants?). The "Other Deaths" column is poorly named as it represents the deaths of the people in the other car hit in the collision. The only reason I choose the Corolla is because it's probably the most similar vehicle on that list to the Prius given similar weight, size, and Toyota's safety technologies.

I found it interesting to compare the "Driver Deaths" and "Other Deaths" column. For what it's worth, the only vehicles in the Gladwell table to have lower "Driver Deaths" versus "Other Deaths" are the Chevy Suburban, Ford Expedition, Chevy Tahoe, and Chrysler Town & Country. All of them are fullsize SUVs except for one minivan. That doesn't indicate they're safer vehicles in all cases, but it may indicate that having more mass and larger crumple zones helps keeps the occupants alive in a collision.

I must say that the Jetta does rank very well and is quite impressive for a small car. My guess is that the car has extremely good handling that allows Jetta drivers to avoid accidents. VW has also been a pioneer with regard to including all sorts of airbags and stability control systems far ahead of Toyota and Honda. This is just pure speculation on my part, but the Jetta is also the heaviest car in its class by quite a margin and that may play a part too.