Featured Hybrid sales picking up in 2023

My best guess:


Yes, there are areas where fast DC charging either CCS-1 or SuperChargers are few and far between.

Bob Wilson

 

Looking at vehicle possibilities?
Looking at job possibilities?
Looking at places to live possibilities?

That's a lot of possibilities to look at and try to exhaust. I usually throw my own circumstances out there, not because I'm anti-EV nor because I think my situation is unique and there's nothing that can be done about it, nor because I want people to think I'm the average person and I'm trying to make a statement that EV's won't work, but rather, to see if there's a possibility I've missed.

I can't seem to be able to add a photo right now. But for what it's worth (and I may have exagerated about 70 miles and 100 miles. It's more like more than 60 miles or 90 miles):

Routes:
Gunnison CO,

Heading south to the station in Center is 96.5 miles (CCS/SAE). There is an alternative route through Lake City that might put stations closer together, but that route is in total much longer, adding over an hour to the trip. The normal route has a climb from 7,700ft to 10,010 ft and then back down to 7,645ft. This is the route to the in-laws and is still hundreds of miles from nowhere at this first station. I never tried this route in the 2013 Leaf.

Heading West to Montrose is 63.3 miles to the nearest station (CCS/SAE, CHAdeMO). While there is a station in the Lakefork campground in between, that is closed for the off season during the winter months and I assume is for campground tenants. I also did not include a station at a Chevy dealer that would shave off a few miles. It's a climb from 5,807 to 8,704 ft, then back down to 7,700 ft on the way back. Oddly, this is the route my Nissan Leaf died going the generally downhill direcction, although I started out at 7,700ft so I had climbed a good portion of the 8,704 ft summit (at a little more than 30 miles from home) when it died at -15 to -17 °F, no snow, heat pump heater being ran as low as possible only to keep the glass clear (and man! we were freezing our rears off trying to make it!)

Heading East to Poncha Springs can get me to a Tesla Supercharger in 61.5 miles. A CCS/SAE CHAdeMO station would be 68.3 miles.It would be a climb from 7,700 to 11,312 ft and then back down to 7,464 ft at the Tesla station, or 7,083 ft at the non-Tesla station. There is a level 2 station near the summit but for ski area customers. I had driven this a few times in the summer in the Leaf and is the route to Denver.

What EV?
With 96.5 miles being the longest leg, temps well below zero possible, and snowy conditions possible, and the need to factor in things like acceptable battery degredation over time, the question is, how much range do I need? And looking to the future, the closest gas station along that same route is 70 miles away from here (so could be the closest future EV station).

Now sure, a lot of long range vehicles would probably make that distance. Maybe even a standard range Tesla. I would certainly hope a Tesla wouldn't lose over 50% of it's range due to cold alone like what had happened in my Leaf.

Budget:
But we also have to talk budgets. My current car was $15,000. I don't feel like I can afford an ICE car that costs any more than that. (And with the increase of prices of everything else, like rent, insurances and such, I don't feel I could even afford $15,000 any more). We are also a single car family (and I'm not making the mistake of buying a nice newish EV for commuting and an old clunker ICE vehicle for road trips again). Assuming I can save enough on fuel for a $20,000 EV, what EV would cost $20,000 and get us to a station that's 96.5 miles away even in temps well below 0 °F or even though deep snow or slush along the entire route? (There have been times I have gone for the entire length of the routes mentioned above with tire chains on).

OH! And one more thing. I currently pay $130 per month for insurance. While an old Tesla Model S might fit the bill, I got quotes from three different insurance companies and all were more than $400 per month for insurance. A new Model Y would be almost $200 per month according to a couple different quotes.

My take home pay is $3,300 per month after taxes. $660 is 20%, about what I budget for my car expenses inlcuding insurance, fuel and saving for tires and maintenance and repairs. (Also I pay around 30% for rent and utilities and nearly 30% goes to health insurance bronze plan and health expenses leaving me with around 20% left for everything else, mostly $400 per month for food for 4 mouths). $400 per month for car insurance ain't going to happen. A $20,000 EV with a 5 year loan would put me also at around $400 per month, depending on the down payment. Would $260 per month be enough for electricity, tires and other maintenance and repairs?

Not that I'm going to buy an EV right now.
My plan is to use the Avalon for as long as I can. I already have a custom tow hitch that goes through the bumper (great to use with my little trailer since I don't own a pickup and the local Uhaul store is closing shop) and two permanently mounted amateur radio antenna mounts and all the wires and cables that have been routed under the uhpolstry and trim. By the time the Avalon is finally in desperate need of being replaced I would hope there will be better options for EV's at that time. Only if there's a deal that pops up that makes perfect sense would I buy an EV right now.

 

Indeed, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Regardless, here is the map:

• 20 mi radius - one planned, nothing operational
• 40 mi radius - one planned, two operational west and north
• 60 mi radius - one planned, 13 operational in all directions (did not check for 24x7)

A "crow flys" map, there may or may not be roads to reach the fast DC chargers. FYI, there is one planned in the center, Gunnison CO.

Bob Wilson

 

Yes. At the liquor store. But I don't drink.

While I knew all those charging stations were there, looking at it more closely, the one within 40 miles West is operational to the public all year. I thought it was closed during the winter.

This still leaves South and East as problems.

East also has a 3,600ft climb before reaching the first charging station over 60 miles away.

South is a choice between an hour longer route and worse roads, but two legs just over 50 miles between charging stations, or over 90 miles down the normal, shorter path to the next station.

 

The meaning of the phrase Bob quoted is that we only do the right thing after we have tried all the things that we think are most beneficial to ourselves.
Very few Americans ever reach that point, and we don’t even know what it is until it’s staring us in the face.
And even then, it’s probably a bitter pill to swallow

 

That's a very deep point.
In relation to owning a vehicle, it is hard to define "most beneficial to ourselves," at least for me.

A vehicle is a powerful tool (no pun intended). It can move us and our stuff at speeds much faster than on foot or even with the help of animals or slaves or human/animal/wind-powered vehicles.

But there are great costs involved in owning a vehicle.

• Economical: A lot of the cars talked about on here would cost nearly half my salary once all said and done. A 60 month loan on a Tesla Model Y would be $800 per month for the cheapest base model option (and not including the Federal Tax Credit which I still have doubts about). Add to that the $200 per month in insurance. That's now 1/3 of my income and we haven't even addressed charging and maintenance costs. Tires ain't cheap.
• Physical: I need more excersize to improve my health. A major part of the reason I don't get enough excersize is now I can drive myself anywhere. I am within walking distance from work.
• Safety: One major reason I don't walk or bike to work is there are no sidewalks or bike paths. And even if there were, not all sidewalks are as safe as they could be. Why? Because I could get ran over, like the dozen neighbors I've had that have been ran over by SUV's and pickup trucks from walking around town, many now dead. This wouldn't be a problem if the great majority didn't own a vehicle.
• Ecological: I believe in the studies that show that EV's are less worse for the environment than ICEV's. And while they have potential of having net-zero emissions some day if all mining, processing, recycling and manufacturing as well as all charging were powered by renewables, they still currently do damage to the environment. Hence my comment that maybe the right thing to do would be to not own a vehicle at all. Of course, logically one would also avoid products and services that require vehicular power. Agriculture would be one that would be hard to obtain food from without buying from farms with tractors and supermarkets with imported goods.

 

Agreed. At this point, we make the decision based on what we feel is best for us. We’re not always correct, and sometimes learn the hard way.
Beyond that, what is best for our neighbors, community, state, country, world are impossible to define until there is only one choice

 

You are really in a sad place. I mean if you get rid of your car and walk everywhere you will need to buy shoes much more often and I suspect they'll mostly be shipped from overseas (at least the cheaper ones) and trucked in from shipping ports.

EVs are perfect. Try for good enough.

Mike

 

Sad place? With society's expectations, sure. Everyone nowadays is expected to have an iPhone, a car, a Facebook account and eat fast food, unless they're vegan. But how many years did our ancestors live without a car? Were they all sad because the car hadn't been invented yet?

As for shoes, I'm from an agricultural background and I've worked with leather and wood and have worn a few pairs of handmade footware. How hard can it be to make your own shoes? I've made my own shirts and pants before, why can't I make shoes from local materials?

I'm guessing you meant EV's aren't perfect.

While they may be good enough for some people, I can't see them as being good enough for everyone just yet. Personally, I tried an EV for a year. It did not get me from point A to point B. The map that @bwilson4web put up shows me that in my area things have only slightly improved since then, and are still not good enough. The EV's in my price range have also only slightly improved since then, but I still don't see any of them as good enough. Maybe good enough for the environment, but I'm not going to go bankrupt just to own an EV. In the upcoming years EV's will improve and some day I'll own an EV again if I don't die from old age first.

 

Sometimes our previous car experiences can have a much larger affect on our view of the auto industry in general than perhaps is warranted ( been there too ) and other times it's less general and more about one type and/or model.
Its getting harder to find reviews of videos on youtube with titles that actually define what the videos subject is, and even more times than not they are opposite to the real subject of content. [/clickbate-rant]
This guy has in my mind a valid complaint about his ModelS Plaid although he mentions it's not as big a deal for him since he says he has enough $ to cover it. (Must be nice). envy? OK

 

Yes, there is still the problem of the unknowns. @bwilson4web swears by the BMW i3 as the perfect practical economical EV. But on paper it doesn't look that much different than the Nissan Leaf except the range extender option and smaller size. Will it do the same as the Leaf on a cold day, go 30 miles, and as soon I start climbing a hill the battery will it drop like a microwave oven timer until a few more miles along and 800ft higher it's now in turtle mode? Does it have quick charging? Does it have a heat pump?

The Leaf had problems with the cold. But even though it had a heat pump and a battery heater doesn't mean those were implimented very well. Maybe other cars have better designs. Maybe even a car without a heat pump could have done better. I don't know, I'm not Mythbusters.

 

Cold temps are a problem for most cars and people too, especially as they age. Even if some handle it better than others for whatever reasons, it still has an effect.
In my experience with cars that have batteries for electric drive, the sweet spot temperature wise is 90 F.
I'm not sure if there are other cars with batteries that have different best temp performance.

 

with my pip, it was around 70f

 

makes sense, I should have posted battery temp around 90 F and no HVAC. All the littler details usually make a bigger difference than expected.

 

I'd like share:

• Economical: A Model Y Tesla will get about 3.5 mi/kWh. My Huntsville rate is $0.12/kWh so it would cost me, $0.12 / 3.5 mi or $0.034 per mile, 100 miles $3.40. Use your local home electricity rate. Like my previous Prius, the annual fuel savings runs about one month car payment. As for tires, the first lasted me about 30,000 mi but now I use Bridgestones with 60,000 life. There is a Tesla tow kit installed by service center for the Model Y so a small trailer for oversized loads or a small camper or Jon boat.
• Physical: a nice addition is a scooter in the trunk. Park away at a free charger and scoot to where you need to go. Helmet and yellow rain jacket are strongly recommended.
• Safety: Autopilot drives safer than me even in town. But it took me about 3 weeks before I felt comfortable. It helps if you have a mentor. So how far away from the eclipse path are you?
• Ecological: I'm too cheap to worry about it. But it is nice to warm up the car from the grid on cold days. with no exhaust fumes or stolen catalytic converters.

No Tesla dealers so get a free Tesla account to see what options are available. For more details, I use Tesla Owners Online to ask the Tesla community but there are others.

Bob Wilson

 

This is something that really makes me want an EV. Electricity is around $0.11 here, and I was able to do a lot of free charging when I had the Leaf.

The problem for me isn't the charging, but the cost of the car. I spend no more than $200 per month in fuel. Even if all the electricity were free that still wouldn't make up for an $800 per month car payment for a Tesla. Used Teslas are coming down in price. Some day I'll probably nab a used Model 3 when they're cheap enough and I'm sure enough that it'll be a good decision in terms of reliability and total cost.

The other side of the coin is a cheaper EV, like a used BMW i3 or another Leaf. But then the distance becomes more of a problem.

 

Last August, I bought a used, 2017 BMW i3-REx, for $15,000. My benchmarks showed 106 mi EV range and 88 mi mid-grade gas. It won't use a Tesla SuperCharger but the maximum CCS-1 charge rate is about 44-48 kW. Cheaper and faster to buy mid-grade gas than try an EV cross country.

• 2014-2016 - avoid due to small battery
• 2017-2018 - almost double the battery range, sweet spot
• 2019-2022 - pricy but larger battery,

Bob Wilson

 

While this is very true, it is important to not confuse this in your case.
You had a bad experience with a Leaf, I get that. But not all EVs are like that. I still think there was something physically wrong with either the battery or gauge and that even most Leafs are like that.

That said, for your needs, EVs may not fit the bill, but neither do most currently made ICE vehicles.

 

That is good to know. I wasn't sure if the i3 had quick charging or not. The specs still are kind of concerning. 88 miles sounds good on top of the EV mileage, but it seems I'd have to charge up both to make sure I have enough for some routes. It's 70 miles to the next gas station South of here. In the winter that 88 mile range might not make it, so the need to stop at a quick charging station on the way back plus keep the fuel tank topped off. I guess modifying it for a larger fuel tank would take care of that problem though.

Yes, a bad experience can make for prejudice. Maybe the Leaf was defective. It's kind of hard to say as I've only been in two 2013 Leafs, and the only other people I know with an EV have a top specked Rivian but take their Ford F-150 when going out of town.

I would very much like to be able to try different EV's in or close to my price range and in that same kind of weather and roads again and see how they react, to see if it's similar or much better than the Leaf did. Maybe some day.

 

I had a similar concern with my first, a 2014 BMW i3-REx. A 2 gallon, plastic gas can (Craftsman?) fit in the front trunk with space for aftermarket tire pump and plug kit. The portable charger can ride in the rear.

There are two key codings: (1) expand electronic limited internal tank from 1.9 ga to 2.3 gal, and (2) enable starting REx when battery reaches 75%. If going on a long distance trip, I start the REx at 75% SOC so the battery is padding for the gas. Either refill gas tank under 1/4 remaining or run to limit (still has unusable gas in tank) and EV to next gas pump. On gas, the 24x7 speed is 70 mph. My benchmark speed is 63 mph.

The original, 220 VAC, portable charger lacked a dual-voltage operation and soon failed. So I bought a ~$200, dual-voltage one and a NEMA 5-15 to NEMA 14-50 adapter. The adapter needs to tie neutral and hot to the two hots of NEMA 14-50 as there are RV adapters that don't.

Current limit is needed because In 110-120 VAC mode, the maximum circuit current ranges 8-12 A and rarely as much as 15 A. In contrast, 220 VAC use the vehicle max, 30 A. When using an unknown circuit, use 'tickle the dragon':

• Read no load voltage from portable display
• Start at 8 A and check the voltage
• Step the current up until the voltage drops about 5-10%
• Back off the current to the next lower value and hope there are no variable loads

A 10-12 ft, very heavy duty, extension cord with light indicator is another excellent option with the portable charger. Many motels have outside outlets 'hidden' in the shrubbery. Some truck stops have NEMA 14-50 outlets for cabin and trailer loads when parked. RV parks are a crap shoot but any port in a storm.

Typical L2 charging rates:

• 5 miles range per hour @110-120 VAC, 12 A
• 30 miles range per hour @220 VAC, 30 A

Bob Wilson