How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

I don't see a lot of investment in engines in the Cruze or eAssist. The Cruze is based on an Gm family 0 engine that already existed (I think the turbo was a new addition but based on an existing opel turbo). The eAssist is more about start/top technology than engine redesign.

Cruze was an C-segment design to compete against cars like the Corolla, and other entry level compact cars. Why is toyota not just canceling its coralla and camry.. because the car companies know people want other cars, and non-hybrids still dominate. If they want to stay in business they need to find ways to sell ICEs as well as hybrids and EVs. Cruze and eAssist are probably far more profitable than the Volt, just as corolla was more profitable than the first decade of the Prius.

While GM was very open about the Volt process they are being more traditionally quite about what to expect next. The fact that 75% of Volt buyers are from other brands is probably viewed very positively at GM, and hopefully influencing their plans s they know they have to convert non-GM buyers into GM buyers to grow. But I have no ability to predict the future and since they have no public plans other than the ELR and the Spark EV (which seems more of a CARB play) I cannot really comment.

Our expectations should be to enjoy our PHEVs and help grow the market by helping others understand how well they work and how much more efficient they can be. What is need to transform the industry is a culture shift among buyers, which is almost always a slow process fed by information and experience.

 

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You could say the same thing about Toyota and the PiP. The PiP is not sufficiently different from a Gen III. The farther you get from a 13 mile one-way commute, the less sense that it makes. If there is not a way to charge at work, it is even less compelling.

The PiP and Volt occupy two extreme ends of the PHV spectrum. The PiP battery is too small to suit the energy conserving desires of most drivers in that market, while the Volt battery is so large that going any bigger it might as well just be a pure EV.

 

According to who?

96 miles today with a single charge. The result was 65 MPG.

How is that not compelling?

 

Remember when we use to set ambitous goals?

How long can we afford to wait?

And what exactly are we waiting for?

 

Yep. Every president I can remember setting grand goals for energy independence. This is a great watch for those that forget
An Energy-Independent Future - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 06/16/10 - Video Clip | Comedy Central


Personally I set goals for myself, not for others. I may try to influence/educate people but my goals are things I can do.

Not sure why you are asking about waiting, I did not suggest we wait. Both of us have PHEVs that match our needs. Now we need to be sources of information to help others move forward and do things to move it forward. Me, I'm shifting some of my research to formally study energy efficiency technology. I've done proposal to help locate EV companies move forward on their products. My university is part of a consortium offering degrees in electric drive train technologies and many of my students are now working in that space. I don't suggest you wait, I suggest you DO something, not just question why other's do not follow your narrow and questionable ideology of what to do.

96 miles at 65MPG, is that good for a PiP? I've heard regular Prius drivers say they get that good.


I prefer 130 miles @76-83 in my volt. Yep a bit more electric but that's renewable and cheaper too. That's compelling. Pip is good if you can stay close to its EV range (which is what seilerts was saying).. or of you do 200+ mile trips very regularly.

 

That downplay to the second generation sure gave that impression... which is why I asked for specifics.

That's the very misrepresentation both you and I have been trying to dispell.

 

I did not downplay the second generation, I just said I have insufficient data about it to hazard any guesses about what it will do. GM has many dimensions it can explore, cost, performance, efficiency, space, segment (CUV vs sedan), that to guess what's next is a fools errand.



My question about MPG was a real question. I'm not about trying to dispel MPG myths about the PiP, or the prius. I don't own one so cannot say what is good/bad. When people report data, it is just that data. Knowing MPG is only part of the story, there is also how carefully one drove, the speed, weather, etc. I'm still learning what is good and bad. I recall prior post by you with 62ish on trips with bikes on the back so wondered if you considered 63 that good or not.

Current prius owners know what they get so they can put that data in context, but I've read plenty of thread on the gen III doing very well on trips, e.g. this post has 63.5 on 420miles. And the plot below, from this thread, show data points from many people in Gen III


So the unanswered question is still is 96miles@63mpg good, average, poor for you in the PiP?

 

If you are trying to make a significant reduction in your gasoline consumption, such would be a disappointment. By your numbers, after depleting (let's call it) 15 EV miles, you got 55 MPG. That's probably what you would have clocked in your old Gen III, given that you have over 10 years and 200,000 miles of Prius FE optimization experience. Pushing 55 MPG up to 65 MPG is just not very exciting to me.

I want a car that will get 100 MPG without trying too hard. I got that running a PHEV in my GII but it was too much work. So I sent it back and bought a used Insight -- which gives me 60 MPG. Alas, it has two fewer seats than a Volt.

 

PHV does. 20 miles of driving will easily deliver 100 MPG.

That's why I questioned the use of 13 miles as a cutoff. The 26-mile commute will deliver about 90 MPG. What's not compelling about that?

And at 50 miles round trip, you'll get about 70 MPG from a single charge. How can that not be compelling either?

 

Can you describe your regular driving patterns, then maybe we can help you see if a Volt can help you reach 100mpg? (Of course a Volt does cost a bit more than used insight so that may put it out of reach).

In my opinion pushing from 55 to 65 is good, if the cost is reasonable and/or there are other constraints, (e.g. the need for seating for 5 people, neither of which a insight or Volt can provide).

I do agree that in the grander scheme of things it is a small savings. For someone doing 15000 miles per year, 55MPG uses 272 gallons and the increase to 65MPG will save 41.9 gallons. Note the savings is non-linear in MPG increase, so if one can reach 100mpg, the savings 122 gallons and if you can reach 200mpg its only a savings of 197 gallons and at 400mpg it only a savings of 235 (using < 40 gallons for the 15000 miles). Still even 41 gallons saved is a savings, so if there are other constraints its can still be a rational choice.

Fuel savings are best done in terms of gallons saved, not change in MPG. For example, the two-mode hybrid can have a bigger impact, for those that need seating for 8 or hauling/towing, by moving the SUV or Picup from say 17 combined MPG to 21 combined MPG. At 15000 miles/year the increase from 17MPG in a Tahoe or silverado pickup, to 21MPG in a Tahoe or silverado two-mode hybrid, will save 168 gallons per year. Yeah some will argue it would be better for the owners to switch to non SUV/Pickups, but some people have other transportation needs besides a single-person commute. The point here is that MPG is a weak model of fuel savings.

In actual gas saved, 17MPG-> 21MPG saves more than 55MPG->65MPG.

 

Both are very compelling.
A 26 mile commute using no gasoline is also very compelling, as is a 50 mile round trip at about 150 mpg.

This is another great example as to how the driving habits of the driver will determine which EV range will save the most gasoline.

 

Thanks for the link ... funny AND sad all at the same time! Think I'll "share" it on my FB page.

 

What is compelling?

The auto industry clearly lowered standards. They had emphasized the importance of reaching 40 MPG for many years, then abruptly backed off when gas hit $4 per gallon. All of a sudden, 30 MPG became the focus. Sadly, it was what came next that was worse. They switched from advertising city/highway/combined estimates to highway-only.

Not having anything efficient to actually sell and the revision of the EPA measurement system obviously put them in that position. But what does that mean now?

At what point does the reality of diminishing returns influence consumer purchase decisions?

The efficiency value which comes up far more often than any other is 100 MPG. How many miles you can travel on a single charge before dropping below that mark would be a new way of promoting. It could be quite effective too, since the EV estimate is inherently misleading for a plug-in hybrid like Prius.

Real-World data is far more of a draw than rating measures. Prius has overwhelmingly proven that.

Knowing you'll go around XX miles before dipping below 100 MPG, regardless of how you drive, would be a powerful bit of information owners have yet to share.

Most of the time, I plug in with the MPG still well above 100. So, I really don't know. My very limited data hints that it's somewhere around the 20-mile mark.

Anyone care to guess where that average threshold will be for PHV?

 

First, 36MPG on gas is not "really low".. its better than the real world data for say a corolla (32.4 or even the 2011 Camery Hybrid (32.6) or the Lexus HS250 hybrid 33.1

I do not agree with you on this. The 36 MPG is indeed low for being in gas mode. We are not talking about a Corolla, but the Volt vs the Toyota Plug in Prius.

Please, please stay on topic.

DBCassidy

 

John,

That is indeed compelling indeed!

DBCassidy

 

BINGO!

John,

You hit the nail right on the head.

DBCassidy

 

"Not clear what you mean.. the Volt can stop and recharge off the grid just like the PiP. The Prius has more efficient hybrid mode but the Volt has a much greater electric mode, they are different points in the design space. Since electric mode driving is far more efficient in either vehicle, both default to using EV first. "

I not talking about stopping and recharging off the grid. I am talking about the driver in the PIP having the flexibility of continuing to drive while reaping great MPGS. This flexibility with the HSD of the Toyota Prius is tops in efficiency.

DBCassidy"

 

Electricity is more efficient for propulsion so the goal is to maximize how often you can use it, while balancing your cost.
I think GM did is homework which is why the fleet average for the Volt has a much higher overall MPG. So the weight issue is not a major one because the overall fuel usage is down.

Weight is always an issue - lower the weight, decrease overall fuel usage.

DBCassidy

 

GM doesn't get it, even with the U.S. taxpayer (read bailout), one would hope GM would go with the advice of a sound business strategy. But, as indicated above, they did not. So the price must be paid by GM.

The clock is ticking for GM.

DBCassidy

 

Why not do HSD type blending and Atkinson cycle -- it is probably because Toyota holds a bunch of patents in that space that GM has to avoid. That an the fact that with the increased weight and small engine, its not clear it would get them the advantages many keep suggesting it would. Gen I prius was at about 41mpg with its smaller engine. Lexus HS250 does even worse than the Volt as it traded efficiency for more power/performance. Gen III Prius uses a bigger 1.8L engine so it can stay in the sweet spot more often -- but that is physically bigger and the volt was also space constrained

GM could have negotiated with Toyota with licensing the use of the HSD for use in GM products.

DBCassidy