How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

This guys avg'd 32 MPH in his Volt and got 72.9.
72.9 Miles on One Charge

These two could be qualified as "Lab test" I suppose. I got 45 EV miles all summer and now at 25F I'm getting about 30 EV miles (staying plenty warm - if I want to be cold I could easily get 35-40 as I've tried it).

 

Calling all plug-in techies, check out this video. scroll down to owner videos, hit 4th dot, check out Andy Oury's video. I think you'll like it. 2,100 miles, 0.6 gallons used -

2012 Chevy Volt | Electric Car | Chevrolet

 

this discussion is really going nowhere and should be closed, but it wont so i will continue the thread.

the only real factor is maintenance costs. you can only split a hair so many ways and when you start out with something that is only a few thousandths of an inch thick, even the "big" piece just aint very big.

so i suggest we suspend the thread for two years. that should give us time to get the preliminary data on reliability, costs, etc.

 

I've had the my 2011 Volt for 1 year. Graphics below are for my Trip A odometer that I reset after a couples weeks of me being back in IL from the trip to NY to get it.

Here is my years rough electrical cost:

- Let me use avg numbers for some calculations. Summer I was getting 45 EV miles and winter I'm getting just above 30 EV miles. I'll use 35 which is likely low.
- 2012 Volts show kWh used for the current day (charge). My 2011 does not so I'll use max. Volt uses 10.4 kWh (65%) for a full charge but with charging inefficiencies I'll use 12.5 kWh.
- My entire monthly avg kWh charge is $0.09. I charge at night which is less but I'll use this higher avg number.

My iPad app and Voltstats.net shows EV miles. So here is my round electricity cost for the 12 months I've owned it. Let me know if I've made any basic mistakes below.

EV miles: 10208.45 ; Total miles: 12152.26 ; EV%: 84.0 (Rem: drove from NY to IL when first bought car)

(10208 EV miles) / (35 a day) = 291 days charging
(291 days charging) * (12.5 kWh) = 3638 kWh
(3638 kWh) * ($0.09/kWh) = $327 for 12 months of electricity using generous numbers in calc.

Or worked per Volt EPA sticker showing 36 kWh per 100 miles.

(10208 EV miles) / 100 miles = 102.08
(102.08) * (36 kWh) = 3674 kWh
(3674 kWh) * ($0.09/kWh) = $330 for 12 months of electricity using EPA numbers in calc.


Pretty close to being 'simple' math for the masses. 10000/20

My red text in the original picture was my message to the normal "masses" I'm trying to make a believer.
a) I told them it cost me less than $1 a day to charge,
b) I'm not going to break their grid and cause them heartache. KISS.




But the ultimate in simple math. 586.5 miles using 1 gal of gas.

 

It seems right, assuming 9 cents per kWh includes taxes and delivery charge. The price of gas at the pump includes all of those.

Volt sure can shift the energy usage from gas to electricity. You consumed 3,674 kWh of electricity and 52.5 gallon of premium gas.

Now, let's look at the greenhouse gas emission. For your reference, 50 MPG Prius emit 222 gram per mile. Per the fueleconomy.gov and EPA site, using the electricity from Exelon Corp, you would emit 290 gram/mile.

Volt is good at shifting energy source but not great at reducing greenhouse gas emission.

 

If someone's goal is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions the volt is way better (the Leaf is better still). If you buy an EV and don't consider your grid source then yes, some areas will be worse than a prius in CO2 (but still much better than average ICE). But if Co2 is what gets worried, then switch the Charging to 100% Renwable energy and you can take it to < 50g/mile.

For those in chigoland, they have straightforard choices as described in http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/home/renewable-energy-chicago.htm

One such choice in Chicago. is blue-star
According to BlueStar, replacing all your fossil fuel generated electricity and replacing it with wind power through their program will cost the average household between $3-5 extra per month.

There are similar programs across the country check out the map at
http://apps3.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/buying/buying_power.shtml

So volt owners can choose to be green (if that is their focus) or on reducing oil dependency, or just having a great car to drive. Different strokes for different folks.

 

That gives the impression of only consuming 20 miles every 10,000 miles of travel. Leaving out timespan is a big deal, since most people don't realize the difference it makes.

Once you travel over that threshold, in other words drive more miles per year, the GALLON consumption increases significantly.

For me at 20,000 per year, the results would be quite different.

That data is a good example for those who drive less though.
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Wow.. 20K miles a year is a lot of miles. Its clear you are waiting anciously for your PHV to get off the dock. But let look at the 20k miles example. If you look at voltstats.net and sort on total miles over the past year, there are 13 people doing at least that many miles per year. They averaged something around 95MPG and probably 61-62 MPGe, for about 210 gallons + 3330kwr. A prius at 50mpg would have used 400 gallons.

Under closer inspection of the voltstats data you can see 2 sub groups, those with EV > 50%, and those above it. Below 50%, the median MPG is closer 60, and for those above 50% EV, its 150MPG. The difference is largely if they can charge at work or not.

20K miles, if its mostly commuting is 75-80m per work day. In general its more fuel efficient (less gas & better MPGe) to use a Volt at that range. And If you could charge at work an EV/EREV might be close to 0 gallons for commuting. One of the uses has 20K miles, and 690 MPG. Yeah they used electricity (which is not not specified but can be estimated). But still at 20K/year, the Volt will in general still save gas compared to a Prius PHV.

A slightly different way to look at it is cost. Using the average of 11c/kw and 3.90 for gas, electric miles are much cheaper. One can compute the MPG$ or MPD and the difference is much greater. For 200K miles a prius would use 1560 in gas. A volt using 60% EV (i.e. charged mostly at home) would use $819 in gas and $360 in electricity ($1179 total). A volt charge at both ends would (say 85% EV) would used $331 in gas and $519 in electricity. ($850 total).

 

When you buy wind power, surely you help making your local grid cleaner.
When you charge the battery of your plug-in car from the grid you are not using energy that is cleaner than your local grid (as you are trying to imply).
If you want to know how much emissions your car creates (tailpipe and beyond) - go to EPA site with your zip code, they will tell you. No need for long post for it.

Note: EPA will give you emissions of the average driver in your region. If your utility factor is different from the average driver of your car then you have to make the adjutment yourself.

 

Once again you fail to understand. Repeating the same empty assertions will not give them more validity.

 

15K/year is the norm. It's the value used in all standard measurements published. Volt owners particularly happy with their purchase... in other words those who tout gas saved... are the ones who drive well below that.

It's that distance between 11/12 and 15 that consumes a lot more gas.

How many times must that be pointed out?
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isn't it the distance between charges, not total miles driven, that determine gas savings?

 

Most Volt owners have been avoiding that reality, perhaps due to the fact that it would put PHV on a similar footing. Charging at work certainly will add a twist to the equation.

That's why I've been pushing for GALLONS and KWH to be the basis of comparison.

Some of that unfortunate precedent already set should be blamed on GM itself, for excluding KWH from the display and OnStar reports. Their choice of promoting "gas saved" is at the heart of the problem. Saved compared to what?
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right. if i only drive my pip 5 miles between charges, i'll save ? gas. it's like getting 99.9 mpg on the display when you're gliding, there is no compareable.

 

The EPA is not measuring what I do, nor what sources I use. They are measuring the average for the area in which I live. I paid for and ordered the special green electricity, it went into the grid, and I took the same amount out of the grid. My actions are slightly improving the average of my local grid, but measuring me by the average is not measuring my actions Just because most people in an area, pray to a different god does not mean one should judge every individual by their choice/actions. The EPA will also gladly tell you the average MPG of all cars, but also does not apply to a particular individual

 

If you charge a Volt at work it'd give it an EPA-estimated 70 AER, more if you go to lunch. If I had a Volt and charged it at work I could always get the 41.4 miles to work and back on the plug. Of course, I don't want to charge at work. Daytime charging is a bad thing since it would increase the stress on capacity. Ideally you should have enough capacity to get to work and back so you can charge at night, avoiding the need to build more power stations and reduce the need to upgrade end-user transmission capacity.

The problem is the comparison between gallons and kWh is apples and oranges. Or maybe cod and farmed fish might be more apt. It's really difficult to estimate the (increasing) energy inputs required to produce a gallon of gasoline, given all the externalities but to me the critical dependency on petroleum is costly and deadly and given a choice I would take EV over gasoline every time. I wouldn't want a Volt, I'd want a PiP-40 or PiP-50 but given that there isn't a PiP-40/50 I'm thankful that there are people who are willing to spend money on a Volt when they could have spent it on a luxury guzzler instead.

 

Actually it isn't too bad. Most locations have fairly clean electricity during work hours (natural gas instead of coal in dirtier areas). Also the peak system load is usually later in the day right when people are arriving home. This means charging at work can actually decrease peak load if the consumer doesn't have to charge as long once they get home. Anyway food for though.

 

That analogy does not fit. Here is a better one. Say I earn green credits when I run 50 MPG car. I sell that green credit to a 15 MPG car owner. That 15 MPG car owner would instantly feel he is running a 50 MPG car.

That is what is happenning with electricity.

 

No, we do want to build more power stations... just not the kind you were thinking of.

Solar & Wind power comes during the day.
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This is a subtlety all but lost on EV fans. A simple way to state it is: you can buy wind power even if you do not own a Volt

Things are not always simple though. Buying wind power is not tantamount to increasing wind-power derived production and addition to the grid. Oh how I wish it was. Drinnovation probably knows more about his local setup, but should not assume for anywhere else.