How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

GM and Volt supporters need to admit that the final outcome is nothing like the concept. It is not an electric car. It is not EREV. ICE can be used to warm up the cabin and battery. ICE can also drive the wheels, therefore violating the "range extender" concept and making it one of the drivetrain.

It is not clean, only rated ULEV. The last hybrid rated ULEV was the Accord hybrid and it failed. It also did not get good MPG like the Volt.

Volt has an identity crisis. It is confusing what it is and what it does.

Volt also cost $11k more than expected. With the latest news that the new CEO ordered to cut $10k is a confirmation that they missed the mark. They also plan on producing more units which is what John was pushing for. At $41k, I hope they can sell all of them.

Volt supporters need to admit all the shortcomings. I am honest stating the obvious loud and clearly to get through to you. I am trying to break that denial and continuation of brush-offs and excuses.

 

The #1 way that the Volt is better than the Prius plugin right now is that you can buy one (and I mean a complete vehicle, not an owner-modified version). As of now, the plugin is still basically vaporware.

 

Add in interest costs for the upfront money, and the break-even point recedes even more.

If you want to play that game, then the Volt is vaporware to 99.995% of consumers who cannot walk into a dealer today and buy one, and have it serviced locally.

It comes down to this for me:
I have zilch interest in buying a Volt,
I have a lot of interest in buying a Toyota PHV

 

I saw a Volt today. Big deal. It's still well out of reach for most consumers, priced well beyond the middle-market budget. The "nicely under $30,000" model we were promised turned out to be vaporware.

Fortunately, the PHV is designed to meet the priorities of mainstream buyers. That's what we like... despite the long wait for it.
.

 

I love starky's ford torino! Ok I'll admit to being a fan of cars, even gas guzzling polluting cars. Let's go around the table.

Ok. I think this is progress. Acceptance is part of grieving, and maybe its grief not hate. I don't know. But good, I'm glad you are on board.

That sounds a little like anger. Hmm is that part of grieving. I wonder what you are grieving for. Do you even know who you are angry at? Let's see the list.

Congress and the IRS classify it as an electric car in laws passed in 2007 and after. They also classified the phv prius. Kind of dumb, but are you mad at congress and the IRS? Lots of people are. Join the club.

CARB and the EPA say the volt is a PHEV and a EREV. They say the phv is a blended phev. An EREV can run primarily as an EV for a period of time or distance.

Listen to John, accept that these terms are in use. Anger does you no good, and you aren't about to change the language congress, the IRS, CARB, and the EPA use. Just let it go. Take a deep clensing breath. doesn't that feel better.

Your next point is valid. If its very cold and the heat is on the engine will come on. There needs to be an asterisk next to that EREV. Sometimes when we lash out we actually make valid points.

Hmm. I'm sure your next point makes perfect sense to you, that using the engine to drive the wheels violates the EREV. It doesn't really. GM did lie about this, so kudos, the lie is a valid complaint. You did argue before that the volt was inferior because it was a serial hybrid not a parellel serial hybrid. So from your previous point of view you must consider the software change an advantage. So a rational person might be mad at GM for lieing, but happy they changed the car since it is now more like they felt it should be? Me, I argued the opposite, that it should be mechanically simpler serial EREV, but understand that after they built it turning on the software only improves the car.

I tried googling that but only found your posts here and on gm-volt website with a lot of negative votes. Who promised it to you. Was it bob lutz at an auto show a long time ago at a galaxy far away. I hate that guy. He is old and smells.

Big disclaimer.

The idea of an intervention is not mine, and I am being sarcastic about treating hate or greif. Please take it as it was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

 

Ah, the Volt vapor is much more extensive than the price.

CS mpg: 50. Reality: ~36
EV range: 40 miles on 8 kwh. Reality: ~35 miles overall on 12.4 kwh
Styling: GM sport. Reality: Prius knock-off.
Emissions: AT-PZEV. Reality: ULEV
Battery Warranty: 150k miles. Reality: 80k miles.
GM: a new a better company. Reality: rofl

 

I tried to find these facts, and instead found that at least for the last 3 years The volt's costs and suggested price have been close to those today. The lowest price I found was closer to 40 than 30 thousand.

Please don't keep repeating these false statements. Please at least look into your sources before claiming the under $30k came from gm anytime lately.

 

Ah yes, the classic "I represent everyone" line....

 

LOL
As usual lots of outright lies and FUD from usbseawolf with respect to the Chevrolet Volt...


First of all the Volt will NOT start up ICE merely due to being plugged in (and cold). How absurd. Like most cars with remote start it will ONLY start ICE if a "remote start" command is issued by the owner AND it is colder than a defined temperature (well below freezing). The primary reason why someone would issue a remote start via the key FOB in winter is to warm the cabin prior to driving and starting ICE permits heating the cabin more quickly as the remote start event is limited to a maximum of 10 minutes. Like any car it shouldn’t be remotely started while housed in a garage. Is the Prius really any different? I don’t think so.

Despite what you have said the Volt does NOT “need to use the gas engine to keep the battery warmâ€. In fact, the engine coolant isn’t even shared and has no common circuitry with the battery coolant so that would be quite impossible. IF the Volt’s battery requires heat it will receive it from a 360-volt electric battery coolant heater that is housed inside the heavily insulated battery housing and transferred via heat exchangers placed between each battery cell. Of course opening the hood while being “ON†certainly does result in the engine immediately starting, this is a safety feature. Seems to me IIRC the Prius has the safety feature as well, doesn’t it?

Additionally when using the remote start button to alternatively cool the cabin prior to operation on hot summer days will NOT require ICE as the A/C compressor is of course electrically operated AND if it is plugged in, all the compressors energy requirements would be directly grid sourced.

Regarding your “concerns†about electricity rates for charging the Volt. How is this exclusively a VOLT issue? Seems to me this is something ALL future plug-in owners will need to address. Are you totally against plug-in hybrids and electric cars then? Of course YMMV when it comes to residential base rates, applicable taxes, and TOU charges. I would have thought the fact that these rates can vary greatly from state to state and even between municipalities would be quite obvious. But of course there are various new initiatives that look to reduce the consumer costs of electricity for transportation use and for plug-in hybrid and electric cars like the Volt, Leaf, and yes, even the ever still “soon-to-be released†PHEV Prius. You seem to imply the PHEV Prius will be somehow immune to these charging costs? Please enlighten me...
(and bringing up charging emissions as being exclusively a "Volt issue" is about as equally ridiculous)
So let me ask you again. Is this your “platform†for campaigning against plug-in hybrids and electric cars then? I thought you were “into†them??

So now I suppose you're going to try to tell me that the PHEV Prius is also somehow immune from the effects of cold ambient conditions too? Yea OK whatever.
But if sub-zero temperatures knocks the Volt from ~40 AER down to ~25 even WITH a highly efficient heat management system. Just what are you expecting to happen with the PHEV Prius' meager 13-mile speed/load/throttle limited range sans any thermal conditioning capabilities? Care to show us your calcs smart guy? Has Toyota even published a peak power vs. temperature table for their Li-Ion battery pack yet?
Clearly in a side-by-side comparison with the Volt, this will certainly equate to LOTS more fuel being burned by PHEV Prius owners, especially so in those states commonly afflicted with very cold temps. Perhaps someone living in the Northern states would be better off driving a "regular" Prius if they were so inclined to own a Toyota. But the Volt’s electric powertrain was designed to be able to perform admirably all the way down to -15F albeit with some sacrifice in all-electric range. Other EVs and plug-in hybrids that lack any ability to warm the Li-Ion battery may not fare near as well.

And finally FYI- While the cell phone photo was cute and all, “ground clearance†isn’t necessarily measured at the lowest point of a vehicle. This is especially true of those equipped with a hinged, rubberized air-dam engineered to collapse and give way when it comes into contact with parking blocks, road debris, or deep snow. After such contact it automatically “resets†back into its original position with no permanent damage. It’s was certainly designed to be that low (again with built-in compliance for the elements) for very sound aerodynamic reasons. In reality the chassis “ride height†dimensions of the Volt and Prius are not as different as you apparently assume.

So I guess I shouldn’t expect anything less than Volt bashing from the likes of you, usbseawolf. You are after all a well-known (and documented) anti-Volt Troll.
You’ve clearly demonstrated your misguided rationale and lack of understanding in basic engineering principles over many hundreds of trolling posts over at gm-volt.com.
But I find it laughable that you feel the need to continue to Volt bash in your “home†Prius forums. Don’t you have “Prius stuff†to talk about?? LOL
How sad and apropos.
So please feel free continue to post your FUD freely over in the gm-volt.com blogs and forums as your apparently not-so precious time permits.
I’m sure like me most everyone over there finds them quite entertaining. (When they can actually be read that is, for as you know they are usually “voted down†into relative obscurity)

WopOnTour

 

Nice first post.

NOT

f*kin troll's troll

 

True

False. Most drivers are getting 40 +in average temperatures. The government rating is done by taking the test number and cutting 30% off of it. 50 miles is quite possible in the Volt, so is 25 if you are a lead foot.

Not even close. In person the Volt looks great. I do like the modern/different look Prius and even prefer it to the Volt, but the Volt does indeed look sporty. The Insight is an obvious Prius knock off from a looks perspective. You are the first person I have seen to say the styling of the Volt is a Prius knock off.

True, warranty and emissions ratings are poor for the level of technology. Gm needs to improve here.

 

Look in the forums & blogs catering to the enthusiasts. They painted a very different picture for Volt than the facts. That disconnect was the source of frustration. It's like simply didn't care. Belief in that hype is what led to the situation now.

My suggestion for searches is to focus on the end of July last year, when the price was announced. There was quite a bit of fallout then. Many became disenchanted. The emotion captured in those posts confirm those enthusiasts had honestly believed that price.

Also, note how many still dodge questions related to goals. They don't like discussing detail. It makes you wonder how Volt will actually be promoted... as the question of this topic asks.
.

 

What are you talking about? Your statement is false as far as easily found authoritative sources. I wanted to know the source, and some blogs just does not create credibility. You seem to think your personal belief in some random poster in a blog having nothing to do with gm is the fault of the volt. Why would you believe a random blogger, then get mad because they were mad? As much as I dislike some things lutz has said, the price has been extremely consistent. Here is an article from when the volt was first destined for production over 3 years ago.

Bob Lutz: Volt Is U.S. Car Industry's Moon Shot

So no reference to nicely below $30k other than your own posts on two gm fan sites. I believe one called you a troll following your statements. You can easily find more interviews saying the volt would be priced around 40 until they announced the $41K. Some bloggers did start wishing for a lower price when the leaf price was announced, but these were not authorities. GM has not stated any price since production was green lighted near your the one you suggested.

Now based on your reading complaints in blogs, you have created false information, and have at least 2 posters here repeating these lies as facts. I hope that you do care, and would prefer not to spread false information.

 

Well, being the co-owner of a Volt. (It's really Brads baby but I drive it occasionally) I can see where it would be better than a plug-in Prius, but it mostly depends on what your needs are. If your commute is less than 15 miles a day and you don't drive over 65mph and you can plug in at work, the plug-in Prius would be great for you (considering it will most likely cost less too). The Volt on the other hand is a bit more exciting because it has better acceleration. Plus, since we have had the Volt, the engine as far as I can tell has NOT hooked into the drive train. The Volt is better by being able to do high speeds with no engine use at all. I've done 85mph (that's as fast as I've ever taken it) without the engine on. Plus, lately in the 28 degree weather, it's only been achieving 31-36 miles on a charge. In the summer, we hope to expect possibly 40-50 miles on a charge. One draw back with the Volt though, it seats only 4 people, and it feels a bit smaller than the Prius.

 

WOW!
For a first post ever in PC, you have been much informed how other users usually write here!

Seems to me you have missed something, like, who am I, what I have to share, just before your missile in this thread.

Let's wait for the answer of the "accused" poster, but you surely realize it is a bit over come right here to this thread doing that.

 

That is how hype works. Comments are made which are somewhat vague & ambiguous. You end up competing against a hope, rather than a reality.

Now you want to address the 50 MPG shortfall?
.

 

Sure, $41k to beta test and you'll be stuck with it. The resale value is pretty much confirmed to plummet as a price cut is in the work.

Your best option is to lease it but then you do not get to own it.

That's the tone of urgency for open and honest discussion about the Volt. It is great to see you stepping up for it and HopOnTour joining the discussion.

CARB classified Volt as a "Plugin Hybrid". EPA classified it as a "Dual Fuel Vehicle: Electric-Gasoline". To me, that means it is a hybrid. EPA label has the "All Electric" range due to the design decision (not based on the best way to intelligently select the most suitable combination of dual powertrains). Both Ford and Toyota plugins should get a unique label (Blended PHV) for using different strategy that is the most realistic based on actual data (not napkin calculation). Gasoline consumption reduction is the focus, not when and where it is used. All that matters is the gasoline gallons saved and kWh electricity used to displace it for the entire car's life cycle, not the first 40 miles. Dual Fuel vehicles requires two measurements for efficiency. PHV Prius has already proven to be more efficient for both gas and electric.

 

A difference between the Volt and the Prius:

The Prius ICE will recharge the HV battery when it gets low even if the car is parked in a garage.

After a careful reading of the online Volt manual, it appears that if you deplete the HV battery, the Volt ICE will not recharge it. I don't know for certain that this is correct since normally the HV battery won't be used when parked and the manual can't cover everything. But, if correct, it makes the Volt almost useless as an emergency power source.

This is an important consideration for me and I'd love to find out that I'm wrong.

Richard

 

You are spinning. The EV range I posted is an amalgam of four seasons. Go look at EV ranges reported by Volt drivers this winter. They are easily below 30 miles, and less than 25 miles seems typical at below 32F.

I suspect that 35 EV miles overall is optimistic for the majority of Volt owners who live outside of the temperate west coast.

Second, cute how you make a big deal of 35 vs 40 mile range, but ignore 12.4 kwh vs 8 kwh for a full battery. That is a 50% over-hype before we begin discussing range.

WoponTour is active on the GM Volt forum. I have read enough of his posts to (I think accurately) describe him as a GM engineer and Volt partisan and enthusiast. Although he cannot distinguish criticism from trolling when it come to the Volt, he is very well informed and worth reading. Honestly, he is one of the best of the Volt forum, which is otherwise over run with idiots who parrot GM and down vote anything that does not follow the party line.

 

Volt has been said to charge about 10% of the minimum SOC of the battery, probably you are wrong. Since ICE motion to the wheels is not a regular path, would ICE worth being there after all?...
IMHO opinion it shouldn't but ok.

I'm not much of a diplomat myself, but judging its technical abilities doesn't justify a straight fight-fire-with-fire, or in this case "troll-against-troll".
I would like to read more from someone like him, close to the Volt, but not in a "hot discussion" environment. And wouldn't be comfortable to sign in a Volt forum just to be informed, since I would never buy one (ownership of 3 GM products before, bad experience)...