How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

I have a TED5000 on my whole house (not on my 220v L2). I've used my Kill-a-Watt when using the 110v/120v L1 cord a few times (bed n breakfast). My neighbor that owns a Volt only uses the 110v/120v L1 cord. Once (varies) per week I charge after work to go out so the L2 is great! The charging for the Volt is well documented on a full drain of the battery. And done above.

Ever normal person I talked to about the Volt (ie. masses not geeks) only care about my electric bill and what it cost per day to drive it. I've explained both of those. They are blown away with that and my last 7,200 miles on 12.3 gal of gas (as of today). People want it hear it in simple terms not geek terms. Heck, most people don't understand (care?) about what a kW vs kWh. Found that out after many demos and conversations about *EVs. Hope that helps explain.

BTW, I'm a little shocked you are thinking the L3 440v quickcharge/DC is going to make/sell the BEVs into big time. I think the vast most of folks will charge at home. Humans are lazy and don't necessarily plan or just have unexpected things come up during the day. No big deal. I'm happy there is a Leaf and it is suitable for the right driving patterns/lives. Will bring out the competition in other companies.

 

Thats what I have found as well. My pat response right now when asked how it is doing:

11,000 miles on less than 90 gallons of gas, and my electric bill has gone up $10-15 a month.

 

oh forgo the tech. as long as you have the money, that is about 75% of what people care about especially when gas goes up. but that wont happen again until next spring so everyone will be back to looking at SUVs again.

as far as the Quick Charge Stations; they will help by being there much more than actual use. i talk to people all the time who has driving needs of less than 50 miles a day who just cant see using a Leaf which is ridiculous. Quick Charge is just peace of mind. that is all. it decreases range anxiety by 75% (in reality only 20% of the population drives over 60 miles a day).

what people wont realize until they actually have an EV is that you are starting with a full tank every day. people cant wrap their heads around that. So Quick Charges are required for EVs to thrive, but using one?? heck no! i might here and there. maybe a half dozen times a year, but i hate getting gas and i will hate getting a Quick Charge.

you know as well as i do that after taking all of 10 seconds to plug in, its hard to go back to going somewhere else for fuel

 

Why would they ask about the gas part? They already have decades of experience with engine consumption.


The people I've queried about electricity usage have no idea how much they consume currently. It's just a big monthly number to them with no relation to the devices using the electricity. Heck, I had a hard time explaining what a Kill-A-Watt meter did. The concept of a kWh really confused, even when I referred to it as a "gallon of electricity".

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The responds to your own comment about blended verses pure EV on the other thread. People won't care when the engine runs, just how much it consumes each month.
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You're right that many people won't care. I was responding to the negative remarks about referring to it as an EV, when in fact it is a pure EV for most people most of the time (about 70% of people drive less than 40 miles a day and Volt owners are seeing about 70% electric miles overall). The rest of the time it is very efficient compared to most cars on the road.

Its not the best EV or the most efficient car on the road when burning gas, but it is a good compromise that is better than most most of the time.

 

I agree with the above. But I don't expect to see quick charge stations on the routes where I would need them (up to Canada for hiking) in my lifetime. I hope I'm wrong. I expect to see a 400-mile EV, which would allow me to make those trips, before quick charging comes to the region.

I tell people I pay two cents per mile for the electricity. That impresses them because it makes it seem like nothing. If they seem interested in more explanation, I tell them that electric motors are so efficient, that my high-powered Roadster uses 1/3 as much energy as my Prius, and that electricity is cheaper than gasoline per unit energy. That puts it in perspective without having to compare mpg with a monthly electric bill.

 

Opel has 6,000 Ampera reservations ahead of German launch |Electric Vehicle News - StumbleUpon


April 2011
Germany: $8.35 a gallon

Gas in Europe most closely resembles premium gas in the U.S., according to Jonathan Cogan, a spokesman at the Energy Information Administration of the U.S. Energy Department. In March, unleaded premium in Germany ran $8.35 per gallon, said the International Energy Agency. At the time, regular unleaded gas was $3.56 a gallon in the U.S.
Shocking Gas Prices Around the Globe - ABC News

 

lol I love the way they try to make out Americans are hard done to by showing the subsidized prices in Libya and Venezuela.

Guys, excluding nut job dictatorships around the world, you pay the cheapest gas prices.

 

In Germany the Opel Ampera (Chevrolet Volt sister) is close to 58K (€41,950) (link) because of Germany’s value-added tax (VAT). However, "Opel said it had reached an agreement with 30 eco-electricity suppliers in the country, offering Ampera owners a tariff that is at least five per cent below the normal price."

Still at $8/gallon I wonder what the average German break even point even tho all of us (Volt & Ampera early buyers) are paying *high* early adopter prices? $8!!!

 

I cannot envision any scenario in which highway gas stations are replaced with quick-change. The infrastructure required for it would be absurd. Will these stations be charging the batteries they get and if so how, the amount of power would be insane. And shipping batteries already charged seems very expensive to me, considering how little capacity batteries have by weight when compared to gasoline. The Leaf's 72 mile range takes 1.4 gallons or about 11-12 lbs in gasoline. Yet its battery weighs hundreds of pounds.

And quick charge has problems, there is just no obvious way to get people their effectively infinite range with EV, and thus ICE-based cars will necessarily be around for decades, at least unless some fuel-cell breakthrough (lower $$) comes along so that we can run on that.

 

that is truly sad. but that is ok. because most if not all radical changes were viewed the exact same way. we laugh about statements like Watson's Statement that more than a MB of memory would never be needed, etc. but at the time, he had the same lack of vision you had and he was founder and CEO of one of the most sucessful technology firms of all time aka IBM.

maybe but the cost to build the infrastructure would be a bargain. or we could continue to pay 400 Billion a year to satisfy barely half our oil needs. obtw, that 400 Billion is what we pay for the oil. by the time it gets to the pump. our true cost has more than doubled.

LOL!! agree with you 100% on that one!

i am sorry, you will need to clarify that point. in the time i have been here (over 7 years) we have had hundreds of posts of people running out of gas in 500 mile range Prius. so i have to say the "problem" you mention is not EV specific

 

Fuel cells face the obstacle of building an entire hydrogen production and shipping infrastructure. H2 is harder to contain and ship than gasoline, though in the event of a spill it dissipates rather than contaminating the groundwater. Fuel cells are a boondoggle.

I see highway fast charging as a stopgap until we have an all-day battery pack, which would be charged overnight, thus allowing a slower charging rate. L2 charging in homes would meet the need for normal daily driving, and L3 at hotels would allow for multiple-day road trips.

A 500-mile car would need about a 175 kWh pack. Charging at 440 v 40 a is 17.7 kW. Ten hours of charging (8 hours to sleep and 2 hours for supper and breakfast) would charge the pack. 240 v 80 a would give similar results. The Tesla home charger is 240 v 70 a.

500 miles is 8 hours on the road at 70 mph with a few stops for bathroom and food. Some people will want a bit more range, but unless you want to drive 16 hours a day, a 500-mile pack should meet your road trip needs. 400 miles would do it for me. And the Model S is almost there with 300 miles, though admittedly the 300-mile trim level will be expensive.

Once the battery pack exists, the overnight charging will not be that big a deal.

 

daniel; stop holding your breath. a 500 mile pack will never happen. besides, i bet there is less than 2 dozen people of the thousands here that have driven 500+ miles in one day over the past year.

there is simply not a need for it.

 

I agree the fuel cell car is a distraction, but fuel cells don't have to run off hydrogen gas. The hydrogen can be supplied by other chemicals, such as alcohols, to power them.

While I regularly take 600+ mile trips to visit my parents during the year, such a pack would be a drag on daily trips. A penalty no different than hauling around a genset all the time, a la the Volt.

 

obviously two cars is where its at but again not an option for everyone. but consider this. for those 600+ mile trips. you have the potential to save around a 1000 a year by driving electric depending on what you replace. renting a car for those occasional trips can run you 50-75 a day? even for half the gas savings, that allows a lot of trips out of town

all in all; we continue to have the same discussion over and over and over again. i am not going to justify EVs or anything else for that matter as "the 100%" solution mostly because there is not one.

all options have drawbacks, all options require compromise. the only real question is you. either you want it bad enough to make it work or you dont.

 

My situation is unusual: My long drives are for summer hiking: I drive 6 or 7 hours up to Canada and park the car for a week or two. Then I drive to another location 3 to 6 hours away, and park again for a couple of weeks. Then another medium-length drive to a third location and park again. Maybe at one of my hiking locations I have to drive to trailheads daily. Then I drive the 6 or 7 hours home. Just a few long driving days, but spread out over 6 or 7 weeks. Six weeks = 42 days, or call it 45 days. At $75 per day I'd be spending over $3,000 dollars. I'm better off keeping my perfectly good used 2004 Prius. Maybe I put on 1,000 miles a year. I also drive it to the airport when I fly. I could take a taxi, but as long as I have the Prius it's more convenient.

I do not share your pessimism that 500 miles is impossible. Maybe it won't ever happen. But I won't say impossible. When gasoline is $50 a gallon and battery technology allows 500 miles for the cost and weight of 100 miles today...

Maybe the man in the street will never switch. Then when the cheap petroleum runs out the economy will collapse and there will be food riots and armed gangs will break into our houses and kill us for food.

Or we could promote conversion to electric now...

 

Personally I'd be happy as can be with a Tesla and its 270 mile range. It does everything I need it to do and then some. I mean sure it would be difficult crossing the country with it, but I take 1 trip a year where taking a Tesla would be impractical. Heck to be honest the Volt does everything I need it to as well.. Its not like I have range anxiety with it, but I drive it across Jacksonville and back with no issues. So for me what Tesla does is excellent, and in my view there is no need for a 500 mile battery pack.. What car besides a Prius goes 500 miles on a tank? Every full gas vehicle I have ever had only got between 300-350 miles per tank. So give me a Tesla with quick charge capability so I can get 80% while I stop to eat in the middle.. Driving more than 500 miles a day leads to fatugue on the road anyway... Think it would be a good thing for society to get less tired drivers off the highways/roads while attempting to drive thousands of miles in one shot.

 

well not sure we will degrade that far daniel. i do know we will change and EVs appear to be our best option by far. there are 3 things to consider

availability efficiency and storage for transportation. the only thing EVs have left to master is storage. the ICE has not really mastered anything except maybe storage but without availability which is limited a little or a lot and the degree will probably depend upon each persons ability to pay for it, storage is a transient "comfort" level.

EVs provides dozen s of options. ICE's only has the option to find a way to go farther on its diminishing gallon of fuel.

i find the better option which is obviously decades away is to drive to your local transit station. load your EV onto a car and use high speed rail to move to your destination. the rails only need transport to a station within the range of the EV itself. QC stations will abound.

the infrastructure will cost a fortune, be built by hundreds of thousands of Americans who will pay billions in taxes that will be used to maintain, expand and improve the infrastructure.

our domestic oil needs will still cover the transportation requirements that are still best met with oil but instead of that being 97% of personal transportation needs, its now 3%...iow, just like now but in reverse.

 

A VW TDI, but you have to take VW with the rest of the deal.

 

500 mile range won't happen for a very very long time, if ever.
As you said Daniel, your needs are unusual. Any business that wants to make money by selling to a market will want a sizable portion of that market.
As batteries improve, range will not increase, the size or cost of the battery pack will decrease. So a less expensive pack, and or lighter pack can go the same distance.

Your best shot at a 500 mile pack would be a specialty company or start-up company that wants to prove a point (similar to Tesla).