How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

You won't know *exactly*. Is that necessary? The day he posted was ~26kW/100. Use 36kW/100 if you want. I was at 32.5 long term when I lost interest in recording it.

john meticulously records his fuel usage. I don't recall seeing your spreadsheet. Perhaps I missed it.

 

First, I want to make it clear that using less gas isn't the same as being green. Many people would assume they are the same. What is most important to me is using as little gasoline as possible with the least amount of electricity. The compact Volt weights about the same as the Equinox SUV. I don't care what it runs on, it seems wasteful (not efficient) to me.

Kudos to Scott for digging into the source of his electricity however, the amount used was not tracked (nor the car?). As the disclosure statement shows, 55% of his electricity is from another source of fossil fuel (43% Coal and 12% NG). 41% from nuclear and renewable is 3%. On top of that he consumed 211 gallons of premium gasoline.

Volt is a pretty efficient vehicle if you measure it only from plug-to-wheels. The upstream emission and efficiency (electricity generation) are not considered in the EPA 94 MPGe when running on electricity. You can't ignore the fact that Volt is also a very heavy car for the size and it's tailpipe smog emission rating is 6/10. Plugins also introduced another form of emission, nuclear waste. We can't ignore all those factors. Yes, you use less gasoline but what replaced it?

From a political point of view, Volt is good for America because we can use local coal and nuclear energy instead of importing petroleum. From an environmental point of view, it is worse than the no-plug Prius accord to CMU and DOE study. From a tax payer point of view, Volt is bad for America. To be clear, I am for (not against) the EV and battery incentive. I am against the dirty gas engine (range extender) tax incentive. Remember, Volt qualifies for the same $7,500 as the Leaf. Why put in more than 16kWh battery if you can throw in a dirty gas engine to get the maximum tax credit?

It is also important not to lose the "big picture" perspective. Volt is trying to save gasoline from the already efficient compact cars. There are bigger fish to fry, so to speak. Prius v will save more gas than the Volt, when compared to similar size vehicles respectively. Prius v will achieve that without using any coal or nuclear energy. It also starts at $26k without any tax incentive. Ford is also coming out with C-Max hybrid with a similar size as Prius v, hopefully similar cost to benefit ratio. GM has nothing for that market -- only 3,800 lbs compact Volt or 5,500 lbs 2-mode hybrid truck. Both of them have high cost / benefit ratio.

 

GM had every opportunity to let the car die and shrug their shoulders when the government took over.

Fortunately, Tesla is leaping into the mass market with the $57,500 (after they sell the signature editions and based on the roadster history, not a likely REAL price) Model S. BTW, Katie is my Volt Advisor. She calls me every 3 or 4 weeks to check up. I assume you get considerably more personal attention from Tesla after spending 115k or so for a tiny 2 seat roadster.

You didn't find a Leaf too expensive. It is all of $4k less than a base Volt. The Volt exchanges:
- full thermal management of the pack
- better highway speed efficiency
- faster
- ability to continue once battery pack is depleted

for:
- better efficiency around town
- longer range (though they'd prefer you not charge it to 100% and "Sorry, the warranty places no limits on battery degradation")
- an extra seat

Excluding a few long trips (which would not have been possible in any EVs currently available), I'm 95%+ EV. Including them, I'm 85%.

What chocolate bunny did you eat?

 

I think that MAY not happen this time, although I wouldn't bet against you.
GM has competition that is serious this time. If GM's EV program fails their will be plenty of competition to take the market and technology lead away from them.
While I don't like GM, I do believe this time even they are seeing how disastrous forfeiting the efficiency lead to the Prius was, and in their own self interest they won't give up this time.

 

But what you say isn't really what you mean, is it? I am guessing you really mean what is most important to you is producing as little CO2 producing fuel as possible. Yes, the Volt is heavy, and could be much more efficient. But for MY families driving habits, it is the most efficient car/suv available. I look forward to competitors coming out with more efficient products for my driving needs/wants.

Low CO2 is also not our ONLY consideration. If it was we would bike everywhere.

Neither is the upstream emission and efficiency of gasoline...

Agreed that there are bigger fish to fry. However it isn't an on/off issue. Both can be fried at once.
Prius V may save you more gas than the Volt, but it won't save me more gas than the Volt unless the Prius V gets better than 200mpg.

 

I think all the car companies have realized we are past peak oil and need to change their product lines away from ICEs. Some will get their faster than others, and some may refuse and milk the last of the consumer pool that fights against change and is willing to pay $20-25 a gallon for gas.

I saw one of those natural gas commercials yesterday "we have 100 yrs of gas right here"; so what? We have billions of years of solar, wind, wave, and geothermal available, probably millions of years of nuclear. How many billions are we supposed to spend on an industry we know going in has an expiration date?

Cars are going to be EV, the grid will get cleaner, and life goes on.

 

I am not looking for exact neither. If I know his lifetime ODO miles, I can use EPA 36kWh/100 miles figure. As John pointed out, we also need the entire year of data due to seasonal change.

I have the first 3 years of my fuel usage in a spreadsheet, averaging 53 MPG if I recall. I haven't been entering since then but still saving the gas receipts.

 

CO2 is a big one but I also mentioned smog emission and nuclear waste. Of course there is also gas tank evaporation emission. It is best to compare the entire life cycle of the vehicles that includes well-to-wheel instead of the subset tank-to-wheel data.

Yes, EPA doesn't include the upstream emission and efficiency of gasoline nor electricity. So it uses 33.7 kWh per gallon as the equivalent.

Corporate Average Fuel Economy calculations use a different conversion system devised by the Department of Energy that does include well-to-tank energy consumption. The DOE’s petroleum equivalency factor (PEF) is 82.049 kWh per gallon for cars with no petroleum-powered accessories and 10 percent less for cars that do use gas or diesel fuel to power accessories. The PEF starts with the same gas-to-electricity conversion used by the EPA in its tank-to-wheels calculations (33.705 kWh/gal), then adds corrections for electric-generation efficiency (0.328), power-transmission efficiency (0.924), petroleum refining and distribution efficiency (0.83), plus a 0.15 factor “included to reward electric vehicles’ benefits to the nation relative to petroleum-fueled vehicles.”

Source



If we remove that huge reward/boost (1 / 0.15), equivalency came out to 12.3 kWh per gallon and Volt would be 34.2 MPGe when running on electricity.

That's the difference between a green person and a tree-huger. You don't have to sacrifice to be green. That has been the whole point about HSD.

I agree and both should be fried at once. The key issue I was responding to is the reporting of gas consumption for a car that consumes electricity as a primary fuel.

That's like saying, the MAIN goal of Prius is to drive on gasoline. For the last 3,333 miles, my Prius consumed 10 gallons of Ethanol (E15 with 15 percent Ethanol). See, I got 333 MPG. That's what Scott did with electricity and gasoline.

 

You "need" this information? For what? If the data is so important to you guys, buy a Volt and measure it yourselves. You can back into the number simply by observing EV miles, which people report all the time. In fact the well-documented typical numbers, 25-50 miles, produce 25.2 - 50.4 kWh/100. Done.

Did you stop when those 17" wheels/tires knocked 10mpg off?

Fixed.

That's cute and all but it takes about 12kWh to go 40 miles in my Volt and that costs $2 with NJ electric rates. Why could I (anyone) possibly care about whatever bizarro math you use to make an "equivalent"? The only useful point of MPGe is for comparison between vehicles by those somehow unable to comprehend kWh/100miles.

 

The point I was trying to drive down is... if Scott is using less gas than an average Volt owner, he must be using more electricity.

My references are from third party (EPA, DOE or CMU), not from Toyota. The only bizarre thing about those numbers is the 6.67 multiplication factor (1 div 0.15) added to the electricity to make it look more efficient than it really is.

If you consider the electricity generation, transmission loss and without artificial inflation, Volt should be rated 34 MPGe on electricity and 37 MPG on gas. That's how department of energy would calculate without the EV reward factor.

Does your NJ rate include delivery charge loss, service charge and various taxes? My base rate in NY is 10 cents per kWh. Delivery charge is 10.67 cents per kWh. There is $15 flat service charge and various taxes. After everything added, it costs me about 36 cents per kWh. That's $4.32 for 12kWh to go 40 miles in Volt? No thanks, I can go 50 miles with $3.7 regular gas gallon.

 

I was driving a 40-mile EV years before the Volt came out. It was my main car, with the Prius in reserve for longer trips. For those longer trips, the Prius far outshines the Volt by all measures: MPG, luggage and passenger space, emissions. For me, the Volt was an overpriced car that would have served me no purpose.

The Tesla Roadster, admittedly, is not an economical car. It's a fun car that gives the lie to the myth that EVs are slow or have a short range. You'd have to pay three times as much to get a gas car that accelerates as quickly, and that gas car would be a fuel hog with high emissions. The Tesla uses about 1/3 the energy of the Prius, and is efficient whether driven in town or on the highway. It's a showcase car for electric transportation. It says to the public: The future is here and it's fun.

The Volt says: EVs cannot go far enough. They need a gas engine in reserve. And then it needs premium gas, and is significantly dirtier and less efficient than the Prius.

My Tesla "consumer advocate" does not disturb me with unnecessary phone calls. I have her phone number and she is available when I have a problem or a question. I can also phone Tesla headquarters or my salesman if I like, and all are happy to help me.

As for the chocolate bunny comment, I'm not sure where that came from. I passed on the chocolate rabbit last Easter because I was on a diet. Normally I celebrate the resurrection of Christ by eating a chocolate rabbit. As a kid I always felt cheated because the rabbits were always hollow, so once I was on my own I bought a solid chocolate rabbit one Easter. The darn thing was so solid it was hard to eat. After that I went back to hollow rabbits. There's a wide variation in the quality of chocolate, of course, so I always go to a locally-owned shop that makes their own chocolate. The sophisticates seem to think that dark chocolate is more refined (pun not intended) but I've always been partial to good milk chocolate. I hold out hope that by next Easter I'll have reached my weight goal and I'll be able to drive my PURE EV to a local chocolate shop for my annual chocolate rabbit and my Pagan Easter observance. Chocolate, of course, is the product of a New World plant, so Jesus knew nothing of it. He probably would not have approved of people celebrating his resurrection by eating chocolate rabbits, but that's just tough, because it's an American tradition.

 

Tesla is certaintly leading the way to the future. Unfortunately my wife would have a cow if I bought a roadster seeing as she views it unfair if her and the kids cannot ride in it. Hopefully once I am done with the Volt the Model S will be priced within my reach(doubtful, but can dream).

Spent a few years up until February doing the bicycling to work and back. While it kept me in excellent shape, and I was able to pocket a ton of money it really sucked during the cold months. Sucked even worse when it rained. Not to mention in Florida it would seem everyone is out to run down cyclists. So I would always ride on the sidewalks instead of the bike lanes which slowed my commute down somewhat.

I get lost at the whole converting kwh into mpge and all that junk.. For me the car does what I want it to do. A lot do not like it as it is some kind of half breed. For me though it took out a bit of the risk/worry of trying an EV vehicle, and it fit within the budget I was looking to spend to experiment. I would have hated to spend $70-$80,000 on a used Tesla then be stuck with it, or get a Leaf and wait till winter to find if it has enough range for my drive or not with the heater on. It is all what you make of it I suppose.

 

1. You need to adjust the electric if you are going to compare all the upline losses, because otherwise you are comparing it to a gallon of gasoline without any adjustment for all the energy spent drilling it, refining it, transporting it, kids dying to defend it, jet fuel spent carrying care packages to the kids dying to defend it, etc....

2. I actually looked at those (non-base rate fees) for my employer here in Delaware. What I discovered is most of those fees would not change with or without the car charging unless it pushed us into a new peak power load tier. Being a law office on a commercial rate plan we are far from the next tier (virtually light industrial).

At home my PV system just got all the permits approved so it should just be a few week before my upline losses are from the roof to the garage. How far can the conventional prius run on those solar panels on their roof, oh nevermind, the answer is 0.

 

Really? In an NHTSA/EPA safety/emissions compliant, highway capable vehicle with heat and AC? With an 8 year/100k mile warranty on the battery? Because, you know, there's a slight difference between that and a covered "motorcycle" that goes 35mph. I'm curious how much you've spent on your Xebra w/batteries.

It's certainly an impressive car but you've confused 3 with 1/3, which is about what it costs to buy a base Corvette.

The Volt says: here is an EV that will not leave you stranded.

I'm certainly relieved to hear you're getting first rate service. The Volt Advisors are always sure to ask if it's OK to continue calling.

That was an impressively random stream-of-conciousness ramble. Well done.

And even worse than that when an 87 year old woman spears you with her grill and crushes a couple vertebrae. But I'm not bitter. Commuter time is the worst time to be on a bike IMHO.

 

0.17 is the marginal rate of generation + delivery. Fixed costs (and I don't recall what they are) do not affect the cost of each additional kWh.

 

The DOE has decided from your source that the volt gets 229 MPGe, which is much higher than EPA. Now why would the DOE use this larger number and you use a much smaller one.

The answer is obvious. The point of the DOE's calculation is for CAFE standards, which were first put in place to remove dependence on oil. Oil is a much scarcer resource than electricity. Dependence on foreign oil reduces national security and leaves the US open to economic blackmail. Why in the world would you use simple efficiency. If solar is 8% efficient and oil is 30% efficient your calculation would have oil use much more desirable than solar. There are any number of ways to compare these figures and the EPA's method is far from perfect, but from a sustainability, national security, and economic point of view 33.7 kwh/gallon is if anything low. The number is of course regional and is dependent on current and future sources of electricity.

Multiplying from a fully allocated cost basis may be the best but there is wide disagreements on how to come up with this number. I would not include foreign wars in the cost of gasoline, but would include scarcity, pollution, and health issues. These need to be done for coal, natural gas, solar, wind, etc too. The great majority of new power in the united states is natural gas and wind.

If you do choose a low ball number because you would prefer to use imported oil than domestic electricity, the phv prius will come out worse than the regular Prius. The prius C should top both of these, and may even be better than the phv using epa's numbers.

 

I'm sorry but all of this back and forth drama is kind of rediculous. The Volt is a nice car. Whether it is more efficient than a Prius or PIP is not the point IMO. The factors that go into deciding which is more efficient are too varied and as such, only matter to the person buying the car. If someone wants to reduce fossil fuel use and wants a car that really stands out from the crowd then the Volt fits the bill. Just because it is expensive doesn't mean it is a terrible car. The Corvette will cost $15k more than the Volt and all you get is a ton of power and performance. Do we slam Vette owners for their car not being efficient enough or the payback period is too long? Some people have more disposable income and choose to buy a niche car that may be more expensive than another car with similar performance. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, I'm happy our Volt friends made the decision to buy the car over the typical niche car which in most cases guzzles fuel . So regardless of your method of reducing fuel use, I applaud you for doing it.

 

Because I removed the EV reward factor. That boosted the CAFE MPGe by 6.67 times. If it is for the political factor as gwmort suggested, OK. I just don't think it should be included in the efficiency comparison.

EPA's MPGe doesn't include well-to-tank(plug) efficiency loss, just tank(plug)-to-wheels. CAFE MPGe includes well-to-tank(plug) but it added the political factor by multiplying it with 6.67.

The logical "scientific" MPGe for Volt is 34.2 MPGe with electricity. Yes, PiP would take a hit too but it is going to be used mostly for those frequent short trips (MPG killers).

 

I learn from the discussion though. I just figured out there is a huge EV reward factor included in the CAFE MPG calculation.

DOE said, electricity generation efficiency is 32.8% and power transmission efficiency is 92.4%. Total efficiency is 30.3%.

DOE also said petroleum refining and distribution efficiency is 83%.

That upstream efficiency difference is not included in the EPA MPGe figures.

 

The back and forth is interesting, and makes for good discussion. USB has at least helped shed some light on my how all this stuff is figured out as I never understood the MPGe thing in the first place. To me it seems pretty rediculous how the stickers are rated. To me it goes 4-5mi per kwh, so it should be rated 4 or 5 MPGe in my mind. I tried sitting down and doing the math myself and could not figure it out at all. It just is ashame they are building in bonuses into these numbers to make them look better.