How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

Actually Seawolf, there is another car on my list. I absolutely adore the Lexus HS250h. The slight updates made this year to it, has drawn my interest to it. It is roughly in the same price range, and while does not give me any plug in ability, is a wonderful driving car.

The CT200h is nice, but not my cup of tea. The visibility for my wife she said was appallingly horrible with those gunslit windows, although no worse than my father in law's 2007 Camry. I would much rather have the Prius.

The other reason the HS250h is on my list is because it looks so much like my G1 Prius, that I love. If you look at the general shape, they are quite similar! Trouble is, I still love my Prius, but she is into the 200,000 now, still original battery! My wife's Neon is also into the 200,000's too, but the Neon feels like a car with 30,000 kms, and the wife still loves it. She is one of those rare wife's that says I should get another car, as she is fine with her's.

As for rear headroom on the Volt, I guess its perception, but my wife and mother in law both comment on the better headroom, while they felt the G3 Prius (not plug in) had less. I felt it too, but I guess its perception. I frequently carry rear passengers, so their comfort is a factor for me.

There is one other problem I have with the Volt and that is the buttons on the centre stack. While I take the test drive guys word that the controls operate with gloves on, I am rather suspicious considering that Ford's controls with the optional Sony radio (similar in concept) in the Explorer do not. At any rate, I will keep my eye's peeled on this blog for updates. Who know's my taste my change.

Lexus HS250h or Chevrolet Volt...... decisions.... decisions....

 

The Volt has a built in charging scheduler that is pretty flexible (define when you need to leave in the morning and/or what your various peak times are (off,mid,etc). I recently switched to an hourly rate plan here in IL. I told the Volt that my "off peak" charging is between midnight and 4 am. My rate is quite good then at about $0.06-$0.07.

Since it takes about ~12kW to charge from an "empty" battery. Often I have 1/3-1/4 EV miles left (curr weather) when I get home but regardless I'm at less than a $1 a day.

P.S. My car matches this one exactly both inside and out.

Pictures link <here>

Review: 2011 Chevrolet Volt &mdash; Autoblog <here>

 

So, is it a chick magnet ?

 

Probably the chicks would dislike the barrier between the rear passanger seats...

 

I haven't been watching this thread closely...

P3 - Kill A Watt - I have this one. It's the simplest and I believe the earliest model.

Sometimes they can be had for <$20. It's one of the better cheap gadgets I've bought in a long time. It shows me how much power things are drawing around the house.

For instance, I was shocked (ha) to find out an projector I used to use was pulling 18 watts continually while in off/"standby" w/its fan running at low speed. I learned to turn off its hard power switch or the switch on its power strip, when not in use.

 

:rockon:

So much so that after hinting to my wife that in the future I'd like a GEN II version of the Volt and she could get mine (her car going to my son). Now she has mentioned it.:cheer2:

P.S. Took a co-worker on a demo yesterday. He owns a Prius. He was having fun driving the car as we were in SPORTs mode. By the time we got back to work my remaining electric range left was less than the distance back home that night. I gave him a hard time because I had to use 0.07 gallons of gas that day.

 

Scott,

Funny story. He would have used zero electricity with his cordless Prius.

Volt can give you a false perception due to the hidden electricity consumption (and emission).

In Chicago, 72.9% of the grid electricity is generated from Coal. Your Volt would emit more CO2 than his cordless Prius.

 

I keep seeing people say this. But the only time I have seen this to be true is when 100% coal is used AND the refining and transport of gasoline is not taken into account.

 

DOE did a Well-to-Wheel study. GHG (CO2) emission is higher with both pure EV or PHEV-40. The average US mix (below graph) contains 58% coal in the electricity.

Cordless hybrid would emit 270 gram/mi, BEV would emit 290 gram/mi and PHEV40 (Volt) would emit 320 gram/mi.

This is the piece from the DOE report. It shows the calculations include fuel refinement and transportation:

 

Coal presumably has some cost associated w/mining and transportation too but I can't find it. I did see a reference claiming ~2.5lbs but (dammit) I can't seem to find it.

Anyway, NJ seems to be more than 1/2 Nuclear. If I assume worst case (coal) for the other 1/2, I'm at 1.05lbs/kWh. My most recent Kill-A-Watt check was last night. 8.75 kWh/30.9 miles - 9.2lbs in 30.9 miles, the equivalent of a car that gets 65mpg. Check my math!

An interesting exercise but I maintain it's all in the noise compared to lifestyle choices if "reducing carbon footprint" is your raison d'etre. Do you have a kid? How long is your commute? How big is your house? And so on.

usb (love 'ya man) mentioned an 85 mile commute in his wheels/tires post way back. I could commute in my Ferrari and burn less gasoline. My Volt could be charged with electricity from a 100% coal burning infrastructure and I would still be responsible for far less CO2.

 

You are comparing your commute to mine with two different cars. That's as apple to orange comparison as you can get. My point on Scott's CO2 emission is still valid. If he drives a cordless Prius, he would emit less CO2.

BTW, I telecommute 4 days a week now. The down side of that is, my wife expects me to drop off and pick her up from subway on the days I work from home. That translate to a lot more short trips. I could use Prius PHV badly.

 

That's a crazy assumption, the link says plainly only 8.6% is from coal. I also know a little about those power plants and the coal and nuclear are not load following, they will spit out exactly the same power whether you plug in or not, and New Jersey is adding over 20% renewable in the next decade so the grid will only get cleaner. Now you may not want to use marginal, you may force it to be worst case which is assigning all your plug to coal, since, well the point of the discussion is how bad electrics are. But it misses the point completely. You don't have a coal chute to load your car. You are not risking the economy and troops of the us in your choice of electric fuel.

Planting trees and not having kids excellent. I wonder how many miles a year you can drive on just the air conditioning of a mcmansion.

Sounds like some here have big footprints, that's why they like to judge per mile instead of per capita.

 

I know, but I'm lazy. Adding it up seemed like too much work.

 

I checked the numbers for my local utility (that I could find quickly online), they generate 1246 lbs of CO2 per MWhr; 1.246 lbs per kwh. A gallon of gasoline releases 20 lbs of CO2, so 16 kwh of my local utility power generates the same CO2 as burning a gallon of gasoline, so mfennel's numbers seem pretty reasonable.

 

I was comparing me to you, simply pointing out that life choices have far more impact than splitting hairs about per mile contributions.

I worked from home for about a year, now my wife works from home. When I did it, I shivered all winter with a little space heater on low in my office or sweated w/the AC off during the day because I'm such a cheap bastard. My wife, who previously worked 3 miles from home, has no such inclination. Working from home isn't necessarily the environmental slam dunk.

 

Its a little less than 0.7lbs/kwh in NJ, no math just look up.

So 8.75*.7/30.9 is about .2. Or about 100mpg car, but do you really care that much about co2. The calculation really is futile. Oil is running out and getting dirtier. The us spends blood and treasure to keep it flowing. That seems like a more important consideration. If the car meets your needs and wants and you find the price alright it will help reduce oil dependance.

Just noticed the other response. This is for statewide and varies greatly. The local utility you plug into is more important, so the overestimate was really an underestimate. Gwmort would produce about the same co2 as he would in a GIII prius as a volt..

 

The arguement of electrics emitting more carbon than a hybrid ignores the possible future. There are carbon neutral ways of producing electricity which are viable and are coming on line. They aren't being implemented fast enough, but that isn't a fault of the EV.

An EV or PHV purchased today will become cleaner as the mix of more environmentally responsible electric sources increases. If an individual can even install their own PV or wind turbine if that increase isn't moving as fast for their liking.

A hybrid purchased today will produce as much carbon emissions tomorrow as it does today. While biofuels are a possible solution, the only one currently available for petrol engines can't be used in a meaningful manner in a current hybrid. That is without major overhaul to the car's fuel delivery system or risk of damage. Then ethanol isn't readily available everywhere, and it takes more effort to make than slapping solar panels on the roof. Plus, it may not even reduce carbon emissions.

 

Per mile calculations were for the life of the car, for general discussion. We are getting to personal discussion here. We can go on a pissing contest if you'd like (compare gallons of gas and kWh of electricity our households consume).

Considering you and your wife's telecommute, why did you pick the Volt since your typical commute is 0 mile?

It can become cleaner or dirtier. I am not suggesting it will get dirtier but we need to keep in mind that it is a possibility. I think the grid will get cleaner as the emission standard will get tougher. As a result, we should not expect to pay electricity as the same rate. Even today, cleaner electricity costs more than the dirtier electricity. Therefore, we should expect the future electricity rate to go up.

You have a good point about purchasing decision based on today's viable solution or future potential solution.

 

The report you linked to earlier indicated that PHEV emitted 20-60% fewer GHG in a well to wheel comparison than a conventional car, but more than an HEV. If you identify the problem as "we need to reduce GHG" then both approaches are solutions, the HEV does meets that particular goal better, at the moment, for many drivers.

PS It was a very interesting read actually, thanks for the link, man do we need to get a cleaner grid.

 

Here's what I recall from the last time I read the study.

• the US average mix does not include California for some bizarre reason
• the "A"ER10-20 vehicles in the study are allowed to use gas in their 10-20 mile "A"ER range while the AER30-40 are all electric. They accounted for the GHG emissions of the gas usage in "A"ER10-20 by assuming the gasoline ICE runs at the full efficiency mode.