How will the Chevrolet Volt be better than a Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid?

Your point is a bit speculative, but completely valid if true.

So basically we've identified several potential reasons for this cycling phenomenon

1. Patent Issues
2. Virtual Pulse & Glide to increase MPG, using battery as an energy buffer to average demand and run ICE at optimum range (rather than buffering into kinetic energy or gravitational potential energy)

I would like to add another

With a relatively puny 74 horsepower 1.4 L Otto Cycle ICE powering the mass of the Volt (3781 lb curb), it would take every opportunity to add energy into the battery when demand is low so it can actually provide decent acceleration during charge sustaining mode.

3. Increase available power for periods of peak power demand

 

HSD control strategies (splitting and blending) are covered under these patents.

5907191
5914575
6005297
6057671
6067801

 

From Toyota's site on the remote air conditioning:
"Maximum operation duration of this system is three minutes. System may not operate if the hybrid battery is under load and/or if the battery charge is low. See your Owner's Manual for further information."
And the solar fan, which isn't unique to the Prius, or even that new of an idea:
"The Solar Powered Ventilation System uses an electric fan to draw outside air into, through, and out of the cabin once the inside temperature reaches 68° Fahrenheit. It will lower the cabin temperature to near the outside ambient temperature to help make the cabin more comfortable when reentering the vehicle. It must be turned on prior to leaving the vehicle and cannot perform cooling such as with an air conditioner."

So, on a hot summer day, I can remotely turn on the AC in the Prius, and cool down the cabin before getting in. Unless there isn't enough juice in the battery, and with a full SOC it will only run 3 minutes. Which should be plenty of time to cool the interior, considering the solar fan has kept it from becoming an oven. What's that? I forgot to turn the fan on, and I can't do it with remote. Well, at least it won't be like a blast furnance in there. And since I'm willing expend the energy to precondition the cabin, I don't care that my fuel economy drops from draining the traction battery before I even start the car.

What about during the freezing winter? Oh, I'm SOL, no remote heating,. Not even to turn the rear defroster.

So the wonderful Prius system has limitations and qualifiers. It might not precool the cabin when you want it too, and it definitely won't preheat.

The Volt will do both. An unplugged, drained battery one will likely turn on the ICE, regardless of heating or cooling. Every other car with remote start, er, preconditioning does so. Moving heat around takes energy, and it has to come from somewhere.

Now, while plugged in or in EV mode, the Volt's ICE might turn on for additional heating. Might is a range of possibilities. I might win the lotto, or I might trip on the kitten going down the stairs and break my toe.*

Do we know the specifics on when the Volt will use the ICE for heat? All the time, during frost risk, below freezing temps, only when temps are in the negatives? Is it willy nilly, or just when it is more efficient to do so? Do we know, or are we just decrying a might?

*One of these really happened, and I'm not driving a new Prius or Volt.

 

Prius PHV has preconditioning feature using energy from the plug. We should see and compare it to the Volt.

 

I wasn't the one bringing the available, cordless Prius' cooling only preconditioning up in comparison to the Volt's remote start.

Except for drawing on the plug for precondition cooling, can actually expect the PHV Prius to have much more on the regular Prius' system. I imagine it will have a more robust electric heating element which may be used during preconditioning. On the other hand, its EV isn't strictly EV only, and already makes use of the engine when it is more prudent to do so. It may go the other way, not change to existing electric heater, and just turn on the ICE for heat.

For that matter, why do we even think it will on the PHV? The preconditioning feature is only available as part of a package on two out of four trims.

Chevies seem to include remote start with the automatic transmission. I know it's that way with the HHR, and if the compacts disdained by Gm's higher ups get it as a, practically, standard feature, it would be odd if the higher end cars didn't. The remote start description in the Volt is just like the one in the HHR's. The only difference is that the Volt can draw on the plug.

The ICE might coming on is just the way the heating system works regardless of working during remote start or while being driven. And until we actually know the conditions that it does so, discussing the implications of it is pointless and borderline rumormongering. It's like calling the EV button on the gen2 Prius crap because it always turn when you push the button and not knowing its limitations.

 

I woke up this morning a little chilled because the house was 59F. 20 minutes of exercise later I was feeling nice and toasty, some of my daily exercise was completed, and the heating bill was $0.

CHP: Combined heating and power plant

 

Really? Is the Volt a Diesel?

 

Gasoline exhaust does have a distinct odor. Usually it isn't noticable outside a confined space.

Going back to the original claim, the Volt doesn't turn the ICE on while charging. That's just FUD. It might turn it on when using the remote start to preheat the cabin. We don't know when the system decides it is best to use the ICE for heat, but assuming it did come on, the remote start cycle shuts off at 10 minutes.

A person could, at that point, keep reactivating the remote start, but that takes an active input to the car. So the Volt isn't going to poison everyone in the house overnight on it's own. A person would have to stay up all night and turn it own every ten minutes, and even then the ICE might just sit there motionless.

 

That initial post appeared to be a strange situation with an uncontrolled test. I am the owner in question. My controlled test results are below and the RPM and "Power Flow" Volt displayed shows the RPM steady at various speeds just producing enough electricity to propel the car forward and not charge the battery. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. The below was from like 30 minutes of testing and things were steady!

P.S. I have nothing against the Prius. Things evolve. A rising tide raises all boats. My first week with the Volt I used 0.1 gallons of gas. Gave two test drives at work one day and used some on the way home one day.

 

Its tough to compare a car that is on the market and one that isn't. However I don't think its a matter of one being better than the other, just different.

I own a 2003 Gen 1 Prius. I am approaching 200,000 miles and have loved this car. I was an early adopter before most people even knew what a hybrid was. 2,000,000 some units later I feel like I played some small part in helping the technology prosper. In 2003 everyone said I was crazy to spend the extra money when the gas savings wouldn't offset it for years; gas was under $2.00 then.

The Gen 1 Volt is going to have some issues, but I ordered one and hope to pick it up in the next 2 weeks.

I love that we now have for the first time multiple power train options, from a 100 mile pure EV, a 40 mile plug-in hybrid, soon a 15 mile plug-in hybrid, and a whole host of conventional and "mild" hybrids. In 2003 it was the Prius or a Gen 1 Honda Insight, when I recently started looking at my options for a new car I searched "hybrids" on edmunds and over 40 some cars came up, that is wonderful progress.

I understand why GM is trying to distance itself from direct competition with hybrids by calling it an EREV, but I think that is a mistake. I also remember Toyota ad campaigns years ago focused around the fact Prius' didn't have to be plugged-in and thinking that was a mistake because it would be better if they did (was part of teaching the public what a hybrid was).

I've driven the Volt and the ride is much better than in my Prius or any other I have driven. That has value to me. I'll be able to brag like Scott above that I can go weeks without hitting a gas station and that has value to me.

For my particular use I estimate I'll end up using about 0.5 gallons of gas a day in the Volt to go about 60 miles or about 120 mpg. The same trip in a Plug-in prius would burn close to a gallon of gas after the 13-15 mile EV range and result in about 60 mpg. Does that mean the Volt is twice as good for everyone? No.

I would much prefer if the Volt used a more efficient system to power the car after the initial charge depletion, something closer to the Prius architecture would be better in my mind.

In the future I think there will be needs for variety, not everyone will have access to plugs so they may still go on making conventional Prius too. I hope the Leaf range doubles. I hope the Volt range increases while its weight and costs decrease, and its generator becomes more efficient. Those things won't happen without early adopters jumping in and trying the nascent technology and showing the potential.

I once compared the spread of the Prius like AIDS. At first no one knew what it was, then people had heard about it but never really considered it, then most people knew someone that had it, then it became a real issue to consider in your car buying activities. Hopefully the spread of plug ins will be as virulent.

 

I read through some of the responses to John relaying my initial post.

Hopefully you guys had a chance to read my 2 post above (#239 I think) that clearly showed the Volt is generating just enough steady electricity to propel the car. I could not be more thrills with the performance and results from this Volt to be honest.

 

Scott, thanks for posting some interesting real-world data. We can finally have a constructive discussion. Did you start the test in CS mode (with the battery low enough)?

It is also interesting that Volt's ICE warm up takes 10 minutes to reach the operating temp. I think Prius with the exhaust heat recovery system can complete the warm up cycle in less than one min. Can a 2010 Prius owner confirm it under 50-60 deg F weather?

If you don't let the ICE idle for 10 mins and begin driving, would you reproduce the same rpm cycling as your first experience?

Aero drag is exponential yet the engine rpm increase is linear. MotorTrend data suggests much higher engine rpms. Perhaps because it was not driven in a constant speed.



P.S. There are dead ends in evolution.

 

My boys and I started with, I think, 5 or 6 EV miles left. We hit the highway near our house within 2 miles. To be honest, that 10 minutes was just a rough time so I would not focus on it. In the future I could see how long it really took.

The engine warms up pretty fast actually. It is not very big as you know. We were probably being extra extra cautious to try to eliminate ANY thing else from influencing our test. I also ran down the highway a ways to get away from some of the traffic near the major off ramp. I wanted to be able to set the cruise control and leave it alone to get a truer test. Based on the above you can see the 10 minutes is rough. Our Honda Civics little engine warms up in just a minute it seems. My other vehicle settles at 190 degrees so, as well, I thought the Volt's temp would be higher than 170 degrees. It stayed pretty steady.

I found this GM-Volt blog entry that seems to match what I saw. I think my steady cruise control test made things clearer.

This 27-Sept-2008 blog entry was interesting and seems applicable!!!

<snip> I could not post the URL to it because I'm so new here <snip>

P.S. Again guys I have nothing against the Prius. I see numerous everyday so they must be decent vehicles. The Volt is working incredibly well for me and I give test drives almost every other day. Probably like you guys do. Nothing wrong with being happy/proud of our investments *and* hobbies.

 

Thanks, Scott. Regardless of any technology battles and hyperbole, this is all that matters.

 

Scott, I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss with your ownership experience inputs. I have a few more questions before diving back into the Volt's ICE fixed rpm operation.

How did you manage to run the ICE for roughly 10 mins? Were you driving it or was it idling? It will be interesting to see the actual timing of the ICE warm up cycle.

Regarding the Sept 2008 blog information, that was posted before we found out the Volt has 3 clutches and a planetary gearset. However, the fixed rpm operation is shown in MT's graph (in post #242) between 100 and 200 of the horizontal axis (time). After that, the ICE rpm pretty much correlate with the vehicle speed. The difference in the operation may be due to the clutch engagement. Have any of the owners found a way to use the xgauge feature to monitor the state of the clutches?

 

You can say that again!

All the "vastly superior" and "obsolete" nonsense was really getting out of hand. Some enthusiasts would insult the poster and Prius itself, then totally disregard any information that was contributed.

It became a nightmare when pointing out efficiency factors, like the effects heater use would have an winter capacity. That dragged on for years too... until rollout finally began and we got confirmation of being right all along. Now, we can call Volt a "game player" and finally move on.

I look forward to constructive discussion. More Volt owners are interested in it becoming a mainstream success rather than just having bragging rights for a niche.
.

 

Guys, clearly if you've read any of my post on the volt forum you know I'm pretty enthusiastic about it and what it does since my situation and drive to work allows me to not use any gas normally. Still I don't typically argue or go over the top on other economy related cars. I often say a rising tide raises all boats. I'll try to limit my enthusiasm since I'm on the prius site.

Re: How did you manage to run the ICE for roughly 10 mins? Were you driving it or was it idling?
We were driving down the highway getting away from the heavier traffic so I could go in cruise control and not be interrupted. The Volt never idles per se. Even if you run normal SOC of battery the cars ICE/gas_generator does not run when you are stopped so I'm confused by your question in that regard.

Re: Regarding the Sept 2008 blog information
I think it matched what I was seeing in my cruise control test very well and that is why I thought it was relevant. That blog did point out that regen braking could charge the battery enough where the ICE/GG could shut off on occasion.

As a matter of fact when I was driving home to IL from NY on cruise control mainly we had the "Power Flow" screen up where we can see when the inverter/motor is going, the ICE/GG, and the regen braking. We saw cruise control 'turn on' regen braking as we went down some modest grades and charge the battery.

"Power Flow" screen shown here: w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=N8HjBFidLqo (still don't have enough post to put in good URL)

 

The question was in regard to this quote (supposedly from your other post).

So my sons and I went out on a pretty flat road this Sunday afternoon and tested out 4 different speeds: 60, 65, 70, & 75. It was 50-60 degrees out. We let the car run probably 10 minutes until the engine water temp (WT) on the scan gauge settled into about 165-170 degrees.
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How did you let the run for roughly 10 mins?

 

Indeed if you've every looked at the watt usage on electric room heaters or window A/C units they take a lot of energy.

In the 30 degrees, recently I was still getting mid-30 EV miles. Recently in the 40-60 degrees (morning-evening) I'm getting high 30 and low 40 EV miles. Enough for test drives at lunch and I can still make it home from work only on EV miles without the ICE/Gas_Generator running.

We were just driving down the highway getting away from traffic. I don't recall if I had the cruise control on at that point of driving or not.

Sorry, I was just clarifying the Volt does not idle when you stop the car as the ICE/GG stops and even if you are at the normal lower end of your State Of Charge (SOC) (ie. used up your EV miles). I was correlating "idling" with being stopped. I may have misunderstood.

 

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog...-plug-in-by-the-numbers-would-it-work-for-you

He concludes essentially no savings with the plug in, but that's using his test data where it looks like he got 22 MPG (!?) when not in EV mode, and assuming 48 MPG for a standard Prius.

Found that in another thread here, if the PHV only gets 22 mpg in gas burning mode it'll drastically change the discussion...