How many more years will Hybrids hold their value?

Eh, they just can't react very quickly. Fuel prices were a lot lower not that long ago. In that world, Americans wanted nothing to do with little econoboxes. If fuel prices stay high for a while (and it would have to be another couple of years at least) then Americans will demand more fuel efficiency, and Toyota will go back to importing small econocars.

America did this before, at least twice in the 1970s and nobody wanted to remember.

 

I used to be a cash fan. With the advent of covid, a lot of places not taking cash, I tipped, to pretty much 100% card transaction. And for transit up here there's a "compass" card: just tap it going into the skytrain station, or getting on a bus; so much less hassle than cash or having to buy books of transit tickets.

One impacted segment: panhandlers? Yeah I know, but maybe there's a reason to have a few bucks in your wallet. Kinda frustrating: up here the smallest paper denomination is $5.

 

Breaking Bad would have been dead in the water, at S01E01, without cash.

Gift cards purchased with accrued credit card points can be sweet. Going to the dentist next Tuesday, hands-down going to be the most expensive lay-down of my life; at least I’ll get a few points.

And yeah I know: there’s no free lunch, those points are paid by the 3-5% cut the credit card companies foist on the merchant, and they likely add when setting prices.

 

Ford didn't use Toyota's system; it was all their own. Toyota just beat them to the patent office, and there were 21 patents Ford might infringe on, out of a hundred plus. Both sides decided it was cheaper to reach an agreement than pay lawyers, which is normal operating business. Toyota got diesel and emission control tech from Ford. Don't recall if any actual cash traded hands, but both ended up paying Paice.

Mild hybrids can shut down the engine at a stop. VW's in other markets might be doing so while coasting. It seems most new cars also have auto stop systems, which have been called micro-hybrids. The cars don't have electric A/C's, so need the engine on to run the compressor.

Not marketed as a hybrid, the eTorque system in Ran trucks and Jeeps is a 48 volt mild hybrid.

Honda hasn't had a mild hybrid sine the last IMA car was sold. They have full hybrids now. The Honda models here have a power-split system like HSD. TheJazz/Fit has a parallel system with DCT like Hyundai's; maybe some other small models. That system is expounded upon in Acuras. They get AWD by adding a motor to each rear wheel.

The motor is just 15kW. The Ioniq's HSG is around 10kW; the traction motor is 32kW. I think your Pathfinder is a mild hybrid.

Nothing wrong with mild hybrids. Early ones just suffered from high costs. The 48V system are cheap enough that making them standard equipment that buyers may not notice the price increase.

 

That's what I thought. But wasn't sure. My son's CRZ has IMA very similar design as earlier Insight, in fact, it shares many parts. Even with a mild-hybrid configuration, Honda's IMA hybrid system did achieve very high mpg at the time of production. The only Honda full-hybrid car I have driven so far is Clarity. But with the return of the Civic Hybrid, I may try test driving it just for fun. No, not going back to a hybrid, but... I like Civic.

Not exactly sure what defines a "mild hybrid" but PathHy can be driven by battery only under certain conditions. It does turn off the engine completely and EV can traction very low load conditions like heat/AC off and on a flat road for a short distance. It can certainly stay on EV only (without the engine turning on) during coasting. But it is very short, and HVAC ON will completely disallow the EV-only operation and the engine stays on all the time.

Thus overall fuel efficiency gain is minimal. I could get a max of 30mpg on the highway without AC with a very light load (by myself no cargo). But for most of our use case driving conditions, 24-25mpg is the best I can achieve on it. I certainly would not have paid an extra $3K for the hybrid premium over the regular V6 gasser version when new. But as a used model we purchased, it was a bargain compared to regular models and to an equally equipped competitor (Toyota HiHy).

 

Some of the MPG improvements in those IMA hybrids came from abusing the battery. Which is why the current Civic hybrid had to be called Insight.

The term does cover a range of hybridization. If a micro-hybrid is just an ICE car with auto stop, then adding any degree of regen braking would make it a hybrid. I personally would say a mild hybrid needs to have smoother operating auto stop/start. From there, the term covers anything up to almost being a full hybrid.

Honda marketing tried distancing the IMA with the idea of an assist hybrid. The system was more powerful than the minimum mild one, but the term is just as useful as mild in discussing them.

A hybrid's fuel efficiency is going to come down to how efficient the engine is. The hybrid system can reduce fuel use for brief periods by assisting the engine, and allowing the engine to shut off when not needed, but that engine is going to be running a lot of the time.

Honda, Toyota, and even Ford started off with an efficient engine, and then took advantage of the hybrid system's ability to help the engine at times by downsizing or derating that engine to trade power for efficiency. The supercharged 4 cylinder in your PathHy isn't that much of a power wimp compared t the V6 in the ICE model. On its own, it could do well on the EPA, but the charger makes it easy to do worse with a heavy foot.

I think having an electric HVAC compressor is one of those things that separates a full hybrid from a mild one, for now.

 

Yeah, our second gen Civic Hybrid (2006 model year) had an engine that was only 1.3 liter. The oil capacity at change was something like 3.2 liters IIRC. It had two sets of intake cam lobes: low lift for regular driving, and if you hit a steep hill climb or something similar, it would hydraulically shift to the higher lift lobes. You could feel it kick in. Tweaks and tricks to minimize gas use.

Too true.

 

Can't mention a Honda with variable valve technology without supporting meme. Is rule.

 

Oh Glob. Knew people that mistook that V for engine configuration.

 

Yeah, when I was looking for the Sienna replacement ~3 years ago, the criteria were:

1. It had to be as large as Sienna with seating for 7.
2. It had to have a better fuel economy than Sienna (EPA 19 city / 26 highway, but we never really got better than 20mpg)
3. It had to be affordable, my budget was $15K.

The hybrid Pacifica was already out at that time, but just came out and no used ones and the price was way higher than my budget. Only midsize SUV with 7 seats that had better mpg was Highlander Hybrid. The same year model as the Pathfinder Hybrid, 2014 HiHy was rated 27 city / 28 highway. That was not much better than the EPA-rated PathHy's 25 city / 28 highway. But for the same year and similarly equipped HiHy was always $3-4K higher in price and almost 10K miles more milage. I found a used 2014 PathHy (then just shy of 5 years old) with 50K miles at the right price.

So, that's what I got. I did not compare it with the regular Pathfinder with a V6 engine, but I knew PathHy had a smaller supercharged 4cylinger engine. I just checked the spec comparison on regular Pathfinder and Pathfinder Hybrid.


Yeah, the spec looks very close. But one thing different is that PathHy has a 3500lb towing cap whereas regular Pathfinder had 5000lb.

Talking about the hybrid engine. As commented above, our Pathfinder Hybrid has a smaller 2.5L 4 cylinder engine compared to the 3.5L V6 engine in the non-hybrid version of the Pathfinder in 2014. I just did an oil change on our PathHy. When I was looking up the oil capacity, I realized that our smaller 2.5L I4 engine has an oil capacity of 6 1/8 qt (5.8L), but the larger 3.5L V6 engine regular Pathfinder has a smaller oil capacity of 5 1/8 qt (4.8L). Strange?

I also changed the winter tires. I have been doing the OBDII connected TPMS sensor relearn procedure using my Autel TPMS tool. Then I just read in one of the Pathfinder forums that this car has the auto-relearn capability. So, as long as the TPMS sensor is awake, then I don't have to do anything. Just driving for a few miles will auto-relearn TPMS sensor ID and and location and displays the individual psi. I was a bit skeptical but wanted to give it a try. So, I just installed summer tires, and put air with different psi 40-38-36-34 on four corners, woke up the sensor by triggering the TPMS tool, then drove the car for a few miles. Yep, our PathHy has the auto-relearn, auto-location capability. All tires on the dash were showing correct psi.

 

The higher oil capacity is probably for the supercharger's lube and cooling needs.

 

Our son’s Mazda CX-5 is similar, at least for the auto-relearn. OEM sensors are pretty cheap, and dealerships offer snow tire packages, with silver-colour steel rims, sensors and hub covers. Toyota needs to step up their game.

 

Well, it's great that I now know I don't have to do anything when I swap winter tires/wheels. On my Prius Prime, I have cloned sensors in winter tires/wheels, so it does not need to be re-learned. Now, I know I don't have to do anything on our Nissan either. But I just checked. Nissan OEM TPMS sensors aren't cheap.

1. OEM TPMS sensor $86.95 x4
2. OEM 18" alloy wheel $858.68 x4
3. OEM center cap $20.85 x4

TOTAL $3865.92 ($966.48 x4)
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Nissan doesn't sell winter wheel packages, at least not in the US. If I paid MSRP for new 18" OEM wheels, center caps, and TPMS sensors, it would have cost me close to $4K. The good thing was that I found used wheels on eBay. The description said for sale is just a wheel only, but when I got them, the wheel came complete with the TPMS sensor and the center cap. They were all from a junkyard off from a wrecked Pathfinder, and the TOTAL cost was $270, shipped free for all four.

 

I think used car buyers are in for a shock when and if used evs are their choice. First a used ev with a good $20,000 battery will be worth $35,000 or more no matter how old it is. We are likely to see 400,000 mile evs without major issues except for the battery. Meanwhile some used ev buyers will get a car that needs a new battery loan to go along with their used ev car loan. Evs are unlikely to have a diy refurb battery industry that can get them going relatively cheap.

Hybrids are likely to go down in history as the most complicated vehicle mass produced for the public. People and mechanics appreciate that complexity which drives some reluctance to own one. Toyota has set the bar high on hybrid reliability but ev reliability will be better without the gas engine. I do think Toyota, Ford and Honda will do EVs better than Tesla, GM and the German manufacturers, either in cost effectiveness or in reliability.

Hybrids will have their place longterm, perhaps as the predominate gas vehicle useful for long distance driving and for those in far rural communities. Non hybrid gas, jet fuel and diesel engines may be relegated to heavy machinery, airplanes, railroads and rockets. Natural gas will remain a backbone of electric generation and heating.

 

The snow tire package for our sons CX-5 was under $2k CDN IIRC.

 

The costs for new batteries have been dropping. That reduces the price of used ones. Even at $200 per kWh, the pack in most BEVs will be under $10k.

The $20k price I've seen before was for an entire pack; case, cooling lines, cabling, etc.

Series hybrids reduce the mechanical complications. They may come to be the dominate form of PHEV when EV ranges for those have increased.

 

The value of used hybrids will be directly linked to legislation. The Fed and local subsidies make some EV purchases much more attractive than they would otherwise be, thus competing with the hybrid market.

If a really smart state like California bans imports of new hybrids it will create a seller's market for a few years, then the prices will drop as it becomes 'normal' to schedule a charging session at regular intervals. That's assuming that the problems with the EV infrastructure can be met. California is requiring more and more high density low cost housing from each city, and that's not a configuration that lends itself to charging at home.

On the other hand... Some PHEV designs are quite reliable, highly efficient and versatile while also capable of handling the average driver's needs on a day to day basis, so in certain scenarios PHEV will be the key to allowing widespread EV adoption.

The assertion has been made in this thread that hybrids are inherently more complex than a EV. When you consider the EV's charging requirements (like preconditioning the batteries prior to charging), cooling requirements (quite complex and critical to the design) and extra weight, the total is about as complex as a PHEV that substitutes a power transfer device (like Toyota uses) for the otherwise required transmission. Oh... that's right, multi-speed transmissions are showing up on EVs now too.

And last, the assertion that battery packs can be easily replaced. Anyone who has been following the Tesla news knows that the newest efforts have been to integrate the battery into structural members of the car body. Than means that each car will have batteries that are unique to that specific model and can't be swapped. I don't have proof, but I highly suspect that swapping the battery between a Bolt EV and the Bolt UEV would be a study in frustration. Or swapping a Hummer EV's battery into a Cadillac; probably not possible either.