Honda:Honda Insight hybrid was an "unmitigated disaster"

Just playing devil's advocate. I also enjoy the tech talk and reading the papers posted here on hybrid tech. Hey, I have already said the Prius is king of the mpg land but it is purpose built for that and the compromises show.

Honda doesn't even make an Acura hybrid having blown its dollars on disasters like the Insight , Cr-z, TL, RL, ZDX (what a mess).
I would guess the next Accord Hybrid will be similar to the Sonata.

 

With his long running mixed IMA/HSD 'fleet', is there anyone else in PC better positioned to compare the two?

 

I dont think it is at all why there isnt one available now, i think it's due to the insight being developed before the CR-Z which they developed an updated manual IMA for. The US market isnt the only market Honda sells the insight in and developes their cars for, i don't think that just because the US doesnt want a manual, Honda wouldn't do it. I have no doubt that a manual insight would lift sales in EU markets and probably the Australia market where the sales between the two gearboxes is more equal.

 

Making a statement!
You have already said the Prius is King of the MPG? I don't remember that, but ok, never crossed my mind following all your posts.

And the compromises show? Can you explain that? Is there a secret for living long time with a Prius, like taxi drivers do?

You would guess the next Accord Hybrid will be....? Do you work for Honda? How on earth do you know that?

I also enjoy the tech talk and reading the papers posted here on hybrid tech. But you are welcome also to discuss, as long as you enter the discussion not trolling.

Bottom line, you love PriusChat, you just can't imagine yourself without it. And hey, posting here you help Toyota improving their models, even with a troll posting like you always do.

 

Perhaps it's not that the HSD sucks but that Hyundai's hybrid tech is very good. Or maybe it's form factor, turning an argument on its head :0

 

Hyundai added a clutch that allows true glides up to 62mph (or more, based on Wayne Gerdes' experience). Then there's also a more efficient engine, which also explains the FFH's better economy compared to Toyota's 2.4l offerings.

You could argue that rather than HSD being a problem, Toyota hybrids hampered by Toyota's lack of engineering nous on the ICE side. Recently Toyota actually admitted to their ICE economy failings.

 

Look I am not going to nit-pick everything you stated in your reply, but I'll will instead evoke two simple points:

1. The content on that article you quote is a little dated and does not reflect the most significant capabilities/limitations of the Gen4+ IMA platforms (like operation in electric only to name one). Except in very narrow set of controlled circumstances, one cannot operate a 2006+ IMA vehicle without a battery pack in a sustainable manner. Even some Honda fanboys are patently wrong about this when they ignore the technical reasons of the how's and why's... so that they can somehow score a point up on a Toyota hybrid. Honda hybrid still have some advantages but this is not one of them anymore.
   
2. Despite the outdated content in the article you referred to, at least it got a few things right. According to it, the Honda hybrid system is not a mild hybrid system and the reasons (however few they provided) almost parallel my earlier statements.
   As Prius owners we have to be better informed and not fall for the same tactics that Prius detractors often practice... and that is: To lazily embrace incorrect information and use it as a detracting fact. The only thing it does is put us at their ignorant level and that is just... well, embarrassing.

Cheers;


MSantos

 

I do recall hearing about the clutch(es). Presumably that will impact reliability to some extent. Nobody can really claim that the Prius drivetrain is not exceptionally robust.

 

No doubt that Hyundai has been really moving forward in the car mfg world.
It's good that another company has a system that can compete directly with Toyota models, makes it better for everybody. (I'm sure Honda could do this too, with the right designed vehicle).

A minor quibble, according to the Hyundai page, their mpg is 35/40, 37 combined (compare to the HS 250h at 35/34 and 35). Sonata has a smaller trunk but more passenger room. .25 Cd on the Sonata vs. .27 on the HS 250h, both are very respectable and more proof you don't need to only use the Prius shape to be aerodynamic. I like that their front grill can close up when needed for better aerodynamics. The Sonata weighs about 200 lbs less, no doubt due to its Lithium polymer batteries instead of NiMH. I don't know how they can make it at such a low price (Prius range). They also use an Atkinson cycle engine. Couldn't find its 0-60 time, including the CNet article you reference, but I'm sure it's decent.

I'm sure Hyundai will sell these cars easily. Hopefully they can still make a profit on them.

 

How far will it run with a dead traction battery? Oh, it won't.

 

owned

 

Why thank you sir. :rockon:

 

No problem. Any hybrid architecture has its pros and cons.

The parallel hybrid (Honda,Hyundai) is capable of running without the battery. Not true for the Toyota/Ford/Volt system.

Check out the alternator in the Sonata hybrid. If Honda is just as smart, they will put one in the new Accord hybrid.

quote: A separate hybrid starter/alternator handles starting chores instead of the electric motor, which is also a departure from standard hybrid practice.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/car...tric/2011-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-us-test-drive

...

 

But what does that matter as they hardly ever fail, whereas the Honda IMA system does seem to have some 'issues'.

Saying that, both systems are much better than the 'start stop' technology being offered by many manufacturers here in Europe. Personally I think it's asking for trouble - think of all that extra wear on the starter motor and 12v.

 

Strange. That's actually slower than the obvious rivals from Toyota, Ford and Nissan.

 

nerfer,

The 36/40 mpg is from the EPA. 0-60 times are from the MotorTrend test.
The Sonata also includes a separate alternator for extended operation with a dead battery.
I suspect the relatively low price is due to its usage of tried and true high volume components such as the 6speed transmission.

 

It matters for those who keep their vehicles for 10-15 yr or longer.

The Prius beats the Insight II hands down. On the other hand, I don't see a Corolla HSD hybrid in the marketplace whereas the IMA is in the Civic.

Indeed, the European manufacturers are way behind everyone else, including GM. What's the hold up ?

 

I thought you have been following my other posts...

That's why it's a guess.
Given the patent issues, Honda will not be using a HSD like system.

 

Wow you're an idiot. Have you seen how the Volt is powered? It's 100% a "HSD like" system, that GM somehow screwed up to require more parts and produce worse fuel economy.

Honda even say their new system will feature two electric motors, so it will definitely be a "HSD like" system.

 

My parents own since several months a new Insight. They are *very* pleased with it.

It is a bit more compact than the Prius, hence a bit better for crowded italian cities.
I personally find the exterior better than the Prius - almost more aggressive, it has more bells&whistles for the price (read more differences here) and it costs depending on the version, 5000€ less (base prices of both Insight (21450€) and Prius (26450€) as per respective website in Italy).
5000€ can buy you a lot of fuel over the lifetime of the car... a lot.

That the hybrid section is inferior to the Prius, no doubt about it. I own a Prius and drive the Insight every now and then and there are *huge* differences. Especially if you drive in town, the Insight is a no-go (for example, what is this crap that the engine at a traffic light stays off no more than 30 secs and shuts off *completely* the A/C - *fan included!* (no air blowing in the cabin!!!) - when you are in ECO mode????).

But if, like my parents, you drive more often outside of town, it works - pretty well. My father is getting consistenly less than 5L/100km. He called me up saying he achieved a 4.5 and a 4.7L/100km on suburban/highway routes. A complete change compared to the Jazz/Fit 1.3L he had that averaged 7L/100km.

And he loves it. My mother loves it - they can make long trips and get out of it without any backpain.
They used to own a Fit (aka "Jazz" in Europe) and they liked the build quality and plastics. Less the comfort. Prius plastics look cheaper compared to the Insight.

So - that Honda made mistakes on this car, might be. For the mass market - sure. But it is a "Honda-quality" car, that will do well for many people.
Guess what - because of the bulky price difference, there are quite a few Insights in Italy, considering the popularity of the Prius.
The price difference is so big, that in the "grand-scheme of things" (ie. overall budget and TCO) the Insight might be a better choice, if you travel, say, more than 50% outside of town...
So it is not *that* bad, come on.

And, yes, I like the cartoon-like hi-tech dashbaord... (yes, the Prius' is *way* more elegant, subtle and refined, but a bit more boring... )

PS: to me the real disaster is the Honda CRZ - that is a bit of a non-sense hybrid... doesn't bring the kick of a sports car, nor the fuel efficiency of an hybrid...what is it then?
It seems the result of the desires of a spoilt Honda manager somewhere in Japan, rather than a well thought project...

PS2: they are already selling the Fit/Jazz hybrid in EU - that will be a hit for sure in Italy since it manages less than 5L/100km in city; the Jazz is a hit in Italy.