Honda Announces Civic Hybrid Pricing

That generic naming of "transmission" would be just like calling diesel & gas devices both an "engine". They are far too different to share anything in common other than a category classification.

Over the years, I've avoided creating any illustrations that point out the differences between the two hybrid systems. It really wasn't necessary. Even newbies could figure out that the Honda didn't offer stealth. And now (2006 model), it still doesn't. But there is a new simulated mode that resembles stealth. However, the absense of a second motor means the amount of electricity available for it is quite limited in comparison.

Do you think the time has come for a document like that?

It will definitely upset the Honda owners, since it will clearly identify some shortcomings of the design. But that educational material can be constructed objectively.

 

Obviously Prius wins. That's why we bought a Prius not a Civic Hybrid.

 

Go for it.

But I'd like to know how you measure the amount of electricity available? Have you opened up the battery leads and connected a multimeter and measured voltages and current? Perhaps this explains things... :lol:

 

I'm confused about what you're asking?

The Civic's engine turns in 'stealth', but it doesn't use any fuel.

 

That isn't necessary. We already know for a fact that the W/kg capacity for the Toyota battery-pack is significantly higher than the Honda.

And we are aware of the charge-level management due to the large collection of messages posted by Civic-Hybrid & Insight owners. They point out the MPG penalty "forced charge" mode causes. That is a situation which simply doesn't exist in the 2 motor design like Prius has, since Prius has a generator that runs 100% of the time the engine is providing thrust. Prius doesn't have forcing... even when the charge-level is low, since electricity can be created & consumed simultaneously. That's impossible with the 1 motor design in the Honda hybrids.

 

How is creating and consuming electricity at the same time beneficial?

Could you provide data curves of power output and MPG for both cars in acceleration and deceleration situations and take into account various SOCs?

 

Simple, it provides the ability to maintain a higher charge-level.

The motor power isn't totally dependent on the battery-pack. In fact, it doesn't need the battery-pack at all to still deliver the great torque and rapid response from the motor. The engine can do that instead, by creating the needed electricity on-the-fly. And it does... so much so that extra is creating, which is used for recharging the same time.

That isn't possible with only 1 motor available... which is why the large portion of electricity comes from braking (for Honda) rather than regular driving (for Toyota).

In other words, in a Prius you can actually end up with more electricity stored in the battery-pack at the top of a big hill than there was at the bottom before the climb. The Civic-Hybrid isn't designed to operate that way. For charging to take place while traveling up, the assist from the motor wouldn't be available... which defeats the purpose of the hybrid system. But using the motor lowers the charge-level, resulting in less at the top not more.

 

I still don't see it. Having driven in several Honda hybrids, I've never seen their battery gauge move appreciably below half.

So, I must ask, can you provide that spreadsheet data. Can you, in fact, show me the data? You so often ask that, I feel it's excellent to ask you this now. B)

 

That has absolutely no indication of how much electricity is actually being created & consumed.

Prius uses more because more is available. But you won't see that quantity on the gauge.

And don't dismiss how simple the HSD system makes the implementation of 4-wheel drive. It's basically just a matter of telling the computer to feed another device with electricity. No physical connection at all to the existing mechanical is needed, only a wire. There's no driveshaft running from the front to back. That third motor is totally independent.

IMA does not have the electricity available for motor 4-wheel drive. Proof is the fact that full power A/C requires the engine to run, even if the battery-pack charge-level is completely full. More proof is the limited speed & distance of the electric drive.

 

I'm not concerned about consumption or generation. In typical engineer fashion, all I care about are the results and the elegance of implementation. Right now, the Prius does deliver the best results (in the Prius at least, not in HH or RX400). But what Honda has done with IMA is achieve 90% of the results in a much simpler format.

It lets you have stealth for a few minutes. Even my Prius won't main stealth for more than a minute or two. The lack of EV only takeoff is a drawback, no denying this. But it seems to achieve the same results with a much smaller battery capacity. Imagine if they increased it...

 

This is a great question. Ability to create and consume electricity at the same time enables HSD to get away without any special "gearbox" as a transmission. For HSD, "low gear" means generate more electricity and output 295 lbs-ft torque from MG2. The "shift" is in the form of energy rather than in gear ratios.

HSD is with the e-CVT. The "T" for transmission is how the power is transmitted to the wheel. You can say HSD does not have transmission but transition. Let me explain. Transition between gas and electric makes the transmission. Infinately adjusting the balance between gas and electric create the CVT effect.

Transmittor is what (physical medium) is used to delivery the power -- in HSD, it is the Power Split Device. In traditional car, it is the gear box. In HCH, it is the belt and cones.

 

HSD is mechanically simpler than IMA. HSD software is more complex and advance for sure.

90% of the results? In term of fuel economy? Also performance right? 06' HCH isn't as fast as Prius. However, I think the new HCH comes with wider wheels 195mm.

 

I have said, and will continue to say, that HSD is still the best of class system. BUT the *implementation* in the HH and RX400 does suck. Ideally it should be geared towards efficiency, not performance. And if this were just a one off thing, it wouldn't bother me. But when I hear Toyota announcing a Lexus with a Hybrid V8 that provides the "power of a V12 with the efficiency of a V6" I have to wonder what the hell is going on.

 

Depends. It's going to have some nice competition with the Fusion hybrid, which may make it to market first. And the Altima hybrid will beat them both (or so Nissan says).

I think the Camry (if it is a 4cyl, not a 6, I've heard both) will do the best, Ford will sell as many Fusions as they can make (mirroring the Escape situation) and Nissan... eh.

 

Some concern I have about the Li-ion..."as much as I love them!", is that unless they give you enough of them to handle the massive current flows... they may not work as well..... the 50kw braking and even 10kw coasting? Li-ion heat up alot if too much current if forced either in or out.
The solution would be to build the car with plenty of them.. so they could handle that much current and at the same time you would have a massive battery bank to go long distances for your round trip commute or long flat drives.